22 Mag
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Vodoun da Vinci
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I don't know about the LCR in .22 mag but I have owned guns in .22 mag and shot a lot of stuff with them...hard targets. Even out of a convertible Ruger Single Six the .22 mag dumps a lot more energy on a target (watch the video of them hitting water bottles) than the .22 lr out of the same gun.
That said, my Wife loves revolvers for SD as well. We got her an LCR - to shoot it/ht anything with it on the second round I have had to handload .38 Specials down to the point that they have no more energy than a .380 or .22 mag. I love energy dump as much as the next guy but it is solid hits to the right areas that make a stop. Not statistics or theories. My Wife cannot get repeat hits with a .38 revolver like she gets with a .380 pistol or a smaller caliber revolver.
I'd think a .22 mag revolver (the LCR in .22 mag) might be just the ticket if her glock 42 stops doing the job or she wants to revisit the revolver phase of her studies in controlability and follow up shots.
VooDoo
That said, my Wife loves revolvers for SD as well. We got her an LCR - to shoot it/ht anything with it on the second round I have had to handload .38 Specials down to the point that they have no more energy than a .380 or .22 mag. I love energy dump as much as the next guy but it is solid hits to the right areas that make a stop. Not statistics or theories. My Wife cannot get repeat hits with a .38 revolver like she gets with a .380 pistol or a smaller caliber revolver.
I'd think a .22 mag revolver (the LCR in .22 mag) might be just the ticket if her glock 42 stops doing the job or she wants to revisit the revolver phase of her studies in controlability and follow up shots.
VooDoo
LOLBELL
Member
My wife has a LCR in 38, a LCP in 380, a SR 22 and a Vaquero in 45 Colt. Recoil and grip frame combined make it unpleasant to shoot the 38 or 380. Vaquero has a 7.5 inch barrel, it is heavy and mild loads make it a pleasure for her to shoot. It's too big to carry. She shoots the SR 22 enough to be deadly accurate out to 15 yards but not the 38 or 380. If a bad guy comes at her with intention of doing harm to her or her family, if the notched ear don't turn them away the 22 cal hole in the eye socket will stop the threat. She totes a 22. I am not concerned with hole size or what a 40 grn bullet will do inside a human body. You will not be less of a threat with 358 bullets whizzing around than you will be with a 22 cal hole to the upper head area. Carry what you can shoot enough to be comfortable enough to use in a threat situation. As I have read somewhere on THR "I'd rather be shot in the foot with a 50 BMG than in the head with a 22"
BSA1
member
"It was YOUR link, you provided it. The point being even the articles YOU chose to promote don't agree with you."
There are pros and cons in every choice of a firearm and cartridges. I have no objections to discussing them because I do not get caught up in caliber wars.
"So the cartridge you're touting is sort of maybe equal to one that might meet the minimum acceptable level? I'm not interested in a cartridge for self defense that's the minimum, I want one that's good at it."
As does anyone when choosing a firearm for S.D. Nor did I say I considered the .380 as the minimum acceptable level. It is one that is commonly tossed about in discussion and in the gun rags. I am not the only person that supports use of the 22 magnum for self-defense. While I have made it clear I consider the 22 magnum adequate for self defense I argue that the ability of the person behind the trigger is the MOST IMPORTANT PART OF SELF DEFENSE. Nor I am not the only person that supports use of the 22 magnum for self-defense. See Posts #7, 8, 9, 11, 15, 30, 33, 35, 38, 39, 44, 45, 46. 51, 52 & 53 so I am in good company.
"Which has nothing to do with the 22 magnum, except that I would be more willing to use deadly force if I were confident that the cartridge involved would reliably provide it."
Your lack of confidence has nothing to do with confidence of thousands of other Americans that purchased 22 Magnums for self-defense. Indeed your comment “that I would be more willing to use deadly force if I were confident that the cartridge involved would reliably provide it” suggests a “Dirty Harry” attitude. The elements required for use of deadly force are clearly established by law.
"What you choose to believe isn't especially relevant. Rejecting sound data because it conflicts with what you want to be true is a poor argument."
Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow researched one shot stops which they published their results in two books. Since then their data and research methods has been subject to careful academic review and criticism. Evan Marshall has gone so far as to state he regrets doing the project and would not do it again. If you have any other “sound data” supporting one-shot stops from a handgun please post it.
"One shot stop" does not mean that you're only supposed to shoot once.
Really…then why isn’t called maybe one shot stop, occasionally one shot stop, sometimes one shot stop or almost always one shot stop?
"The "I'm such a deadly marksman I don't need an adequate cartridge" fantasy strikes again. What you might be able to do while standing calmly in front of a paper target at a well lit range is not likely to be the same as you will be able to do under stress in the dark while being shot at by a target on the move. You may not get a chance for more than one shot, which is why one shot stop statistics are relevant."
Your rebuttal fails for several reasons;
You have not conclusively proved that the 22 magnum is a inadequate cartridge for self-defense. It is merely your opinion.
Shooting under stress in the dark has no bearing on stopping power.
Again you have not provided any data supporting one-shot stops from a handgun.
Nor do you offer an answer to my question “Or let me ask this question. If I shoot a attacker in the eye driving the bullet straight back into the brain there is only a 42% chance of the shot stopping him?” I’ll take your lack of response as acknowledgement that BULLET PLACEMENT is one of, if not the most important, part of handgun stopping power.
Methinks you protest to much. While I am comfortable with whatever choice of firearm, if any, you choose for self defense you are uncomfortable with the thousands of American that have chosen the 22 magnum.
There are pros and cons in every choice of a firearm and cartridges. I have no objections to discussing them because I do not get caught up in caliber wars.
"So the cartridge you're touting is sort of maybe equal to one that might meet the minimum acceptable level? I'm not interested in a cartridge for self defense that's the minimum, I want one that's good at it."
As does anyone when choosing a firearm for S.D. Nor did I say I considered the .380 as the minimum acceptable level. It is one that is commonly tossed about in discussion and in the gun rags. I am not the only person that supports use of the 22 magnum for self-defense. While I have made it clear I consider the 22 magnum adequate for self defense I argue that the ability of the person behind the trigger is the MOST IMPORTANT PART OF SELF DEFENSE. Nor I am not the only person that supports use of the 22 magnum for self-defense. See Posts #7, 8, 9, 11, 15, 30, 33, 35, 38, 39, 44, 45, 46. 51, 52 & 53 so I am in good company.
"Which has nothing to do with the 22 magnum, except that I would be more willing to use deadly force if I were confident that the cartridge involved would reliably provide it."
Your lack of confidence has nothing to do with confidence of thousands of other Americans that purchased 22 Magnums for self-defense. Indeed your comment “that I would be more willing to use deadly force if I were confident that the cartridge involved would reliably provide it” suggests a “Dirty Harry” attitude. The elements required for use of deadly force are clearly established by law.
"What you choose to believe isn't especially relevant. Rejecting sound data because it conflicts with what you want to be true is a poor argument."
Evan Marshall and Edwin Sanow researched one shot stops which they published their results in two books. Since then their data and research methods has been subject to careful academic review and criticism. Evan Marshall has gone so far as to state he regrets doing the project and would not do it again. If you have any other “sound data” supporting one-shot stops from a handgun please post it.
"One shot stop" does not mean that you're only supposed to shoot once.
Really…then why isn’t called maybe one shot stop, occasionally one shot stop, sometimes one shot stop or almost always one shot stop?
"The "I'm such a deadly marksman I don't need an adequate cartridge" fantasy strikes again. What you might be able to do while standing calmly in front of a paper target at a well lit range is not likely to be the same as you will be able to do under stress in the dark while being shot at by a target on the move. You may not get a chance for more than one shot, which is why one shot stop statistics are relevant."
Your rebuttal fails for several reasons;
You have not conclusively proved that the 22 magnum is a inadequate cartridge for self-defense. It is merely your opinion.
Shooting under stress in the dark has no bearing on stopping power.
Again you have not provided any data supporting one-shot stops from a handgun.
Nor do you offer an answer to my question “Or let me ask this question. If I shoot a attacker in the eye driving the bullet straight back into the brain there is only a 42% chance of the shot stopping him?” I’ll take your lack of response as acknowledgement that BULLET PLACEMENT is one of, if not the most important, part of handgun stopping power.
Methinks you protest to much. While I am comfortable with whatever choice of firearm, if any, you choose for self defense you are uncomfortable with the thousands of American that have chosen the 22 magnum.
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BSA1
member
Stainz,
Well a 44 is a 22 x 2 right? I'd say you are well armed.
Well a 44 is a 22 x 2 right? I'd say you are well armed.
Why do these always devolve into a ".45 is better" or "9mm is the minimum"? Everybody gets it. A .45 round through the arm will make a bigger hole than a 22 mag. I don't ever recall anyone saying that the .22 HMR is the ultimate SD round. Will it work? Probably. Is there something better? Of course. Are all pistol rounds a compromise? Yes.
If you want the ultimate in SD then hire some former Navy Seals or bodyguards to protect you and let them carry big guns. Everything else is a compromise based on circumstance that differ from case to case.
My feelings are pretty simple. The vast majority of times just the sight of a gun will end the confrontation. If it doesn't then being hit by a bullet will stop MOST of the ones that get to that point. I'm sure someone here can dig up the statistics that will absolutely prove (yeah right) what percentage of altercations actually wind up with shots fired and then how many of those instances would have ended differently if someone had a .45 instead of a .22 mag. I carry what I am comfortable with and what I feel confident with shooting. More often than not that is a pocket 380 or 9mm but I am not against a 22mag or a 1911 nor do I feel the need to ridicule someone's choices.
If you want the ultimate in SD then hire some former Navy Seals or bodyguards to protect you and let them carry big guns. Everything else is a compromise based on circumstance that differ from case to case.
My feelings are pretty simple. The vast majority of times just the sight of a gun will end the confrontation. If it doesn't then being hit by a bullet will stop MOST of the ones that get to that point. I'm sure someone here can dig up the statistics that will absolutely prove (yeah right) what percentage of altercations actually wind up with shots fired and then how many of those instances would have ended differently if someone had a .45 instead of a .22 mag. I carry what I am comfortable with and what I feel confident with shooting. More often than not that is a pocket 380 or 9mm but I am not against a 22mag or a 1911 nor do I feel the need to ridicule someone's choices.
Stainz
Member
Drowned in the Nile? I treat my ugo-296 with kindness... and respect... when angered, it really slaps the old palm!
I did a cursory look for the oft-referenced suggestion that even Bill Jordan and Massad Ayoob liked the .22 WMR as a backup. I found Mas' review of a couple of .22 WMRs, just not the often referred to S&W 351PD - a better literature search would help. In any case, ex-TN lawman turned gun writer Massad Ayoob is an entertaining and informative writer - and responsible for hours of detour in my reading. I haven't seen him on the Outdoor Channel's gun shows in a bit, but he was every bit as informative on camera when I did see him.
Vilify the .22 WMR if you will, but such diatribes will fall on deaf ears here. The .22 WMR snubby is a natural progression here from a lifetime of over indulgence in wrist popping recoils. It has it's place in self defense.
Stainz
I did a cursory look for the oft-referenced suggestion that even Bill Jordan and Massad Ayoob liked the .22 WMR as a backup. I found Mas' review of a couple of .22 WMRs, just not the often referred to S&W 351PD - a better literature search would help. In any case, ex-TN lawman turned gun writer Massad Ayoob is an entertaining and informative writer - and responsible for hours of detour in my reading. I haven't seen him on the Outdoor Channel's gun shows in a bit, but he was every bit as informative on camera when I did see him.
Vilify the .22 WMR if you will, but such diatribes will fall on deaf ears here. The .22 WMR snubby is a natural progression here from a lifetime of over indulgence in wrist popping recoils. It has it's place in self defense.
Stainz
BSA1 said:
natman said:
BSA1 said:
So it's OK for you to shout "MOST IMPORTANTLY THE WILLINGNESS TO USE DEADLY FORCE", but if I reply that it would be a good thing to be able to actually provide it, that makes me some sort of blood thirsty vigilante?
Please.
Let me restate it so that there’s no way to mistake it:
"I would be more willing to use deadly force WHEN LEGALLY CALLED FOR if I were confident that the cartridge involved would reliably provide it."
I hope that's clear enough.
natman said:
bsa1 said:
Let’s talk about Marshall and Sanow. It’s true they have come under a lot of criticism, some of it warranted, a lot of it from people who’s pet preconceptions weren’t supported. It’s true that the data wasn’t gathered under laboratory conditions, due no doubt to the reluctance of universities to supply an adequate number of test subjects (not even freshmen).
So they had to make do with data gathered from the streets, despite the lack of controlled conditions. It’s also true that the percentages were simply calculated without mentioning the degree of uncertainty, which under the circumstances would be considerable. So I wouldn’t change loads or cartridges because one was a few percentage points better. However, for all its faults, Marshall and Sanow remains the best data currently available. If you don’t like it you’ll have to come up with a study that does it better, not just reject it out of hand. BSA1 said:
I haven’t provided any because you’ve refused to listen to any in other posts. But since you’ve asked:
Marshall and Sanow one shot stop statistics:
22 Magnum (best) 42%
38 Special +P (best) 83%
That’s a whopping 41 percentage points difference; a good deal more than the degree of uncertainty.
Let’s take a look at the exterior ballistics of the two:
Hornady Critical Defense 22 Magnum 40 grain:
1000 fps 100 ft-lbs energy
Hornady Critical Defense 38 Special +P
1090 fps 290 ft-lbs energy
So similar velocities, almost three times as much energy and 2.55 times as much frontal area show why the 38 Special +P is a more effective cartridge. (Note: The 38 Special velocity is slightly inflated because it came from a longer barrel. Doesn't change the point.)
natman said:
BSA1 said:
A one shot stop does not mean that you SHOULD only shoot once, it means you only HAD TO shoot once. This is not a subtle distinction.
If shooting is called for you should shoot until a stop is produced. A one shot stop percentage means the likelihood that one shot will produce a stop. The point, which you seem determined not to grasp, is that some cartridges are more likely than others to produce a stop in one shot. A high one stop shot percentage is desirable because in the real world, one shot to the center of mass may be all you're going to get, your "8 shots to the heart" and "one in the eye" fantasies notwithstanding.
natman said:
BSA1 said:
You're quite right that shooting under stress in the dark has no bearing whatsoever on stopping power; which is why I am amazed that you managed to misread it that way. Shooting under stress in the dark does however have considerable bearing on the level of practical accuracy realistically possible, which is why the “one shot to the eye” scenario is so far fetched.
I don't mind an honest difference of opinion; a forum would be pretty dull without it. So feel free to disagree with what I write, but I'd appreciate the courtesy if you'd disagree with what I actually write.
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Tacoma
Member
22 mag may be recoil friendly but I'll bet she doesn't enjoy shooting it out of a 2" barrel. Thee flash and bang can be intimidating ( and inhibit good shot placement) for even skilled shooters.. While I applaud the choice of a revolver, I'd vote 38 special. Cheap ammo, easy to dial down/ up to any power level you want.
That's an excellent point about 22 Mag ammo. Until recently all 22 Mag ammo was loaded for optimum performance in rifles and most of it still is. I had a 6" 22 Mag Single Six and it would produce a loud report and an amazing flash, even in daylight. It would be truly distracting from a 2" barrel in the dark.
If you must use 22 Mag from a pistol for SD one of the new pistol friendly loads would be the only way to go, despite the slightly lower velocity they provide.
jimmyraythomason
Member
This thread is just more reason why I never ask ANYONE's opinion concerning MY personal choice of caliber, action, magazine capacity, load or anything else for any use.
BSA1
member
natman,
I really don't know where you are trying to go with this.
You have shrilly been attacking the 22 Magnum and expressing your opinion as facts without any scientific data to support them.
It is simply enough to say that the many thousands of Americans that have purchased 22 Magnum handguns, along with the many posters that have replied on this thread and myself do believe it is good choice for self defense under certain circumstances. Nor is opinion just shared on the Internet as there are several articles in magazines such as The American Rifleman June 2013 issue about this subject.
I have posted links discussing the pros and cons of using the 22 Magnum for self-defense. I have also said I do not get caught up in caliber wars as it is the willingness and determination of the person behind the trigger that will most likely determine the successful resolution of a conflict. All handguns and handgun cartridges have their pros and cons.
Like I said you pay your money and take your chances.
I really don't know where you are trying to go with this.
You have shrilly been attacking the 22 Magnum and expressing your opinion as facts without any scientific data to support them.
It is simply enough to say that the many thousands of Americans that have purchased 22 Magnum handguns, along with the many posters that have replied on this thread and myself do believe it is good choice for self defense under certain circumstances. Nor is opinion just shared on the Internet as there are several articles in magazines such as The American Rifleman June 2013 issue about this subject.
I have posted links discussing the pros and cons of using the 22 Magnum for self-defense. I have also said I do not get caught up in caliber wars as it is the willingness and determination of the person behind the trigger that will most likely determine the successful resolution of a conflict. All handguns and handgun cartridges have their pros and cons.
Like I said you pay your money and take your chances.
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Hardly. Plenty of good solid data has been presented, you have chosen to ignore it.
Lot of people base decisions on unrealistic criteria, ballistic ignorance and rationalizations instead of rationality. That doesn't make them right.
I think the horse has been sufficiently beaten. Let's agree to disagree and let it go.
Vern Humphrey
Member
One problem with any rimfire is that, nowadays reliability has degraded. I wouldn't choose a rimfire for defense for that reason. Try a Colt Detective Special (6 rounds) or a Ruger SP 101 in .327 Mag.
BSA1
member
natman,
I look forward to reading your articles and your adventures with convincing the world that the 22 magnum is useless for self-defense.
I look forward to reading your articles and your adventures with convincing the world that the 22 magnum is useless for self-defense.
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BSA1
member
Vern,
22 rimfire firearms always have been known to be unreliable with certain brands in which case the usual advice is to simply try another brand. For example I have a Browning Buckmark that will not reliably shoot Winchesters but Remingtons go bang every time.
Or are you referring to something that has happened with current production ammo?
22 rimfire firearms always have been known to be unreliable with certain brands in which case the usual advice is to simply try another brand. For example I have a Browning Buckmark that will not reliably shoot Winchesters but Remingtons go bang every time.
Or are you referring to something that has happened with current production ammo?
Vern Humphrey
Member
If you go through the archives here, you'll see a lot of complaints about rimfire ammo quality starting a few years back. My experience is the quality and reliability has gone downhill quite a bit.
I'll still land on the side of picking the biggest caliber you can handle and carry. If its only a 22 Mag, then I'll take it but if you can handle and be proficient with a larger caliber, as the OP has stated, I would grab as much as I can. 5 rounds of 38 special would be preferred to 8 rounds of 22 mag. Even then, I still would prefer 13 rounds of 9mm.
george29
Member
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Gentlemen, I see the end of this thread cometh, shall we recap and agree to certain truths? A: A .22 magnum is not usually anyone's first choice of SD except either under dire circumstances or due to age related problems where a 22 is better (much better) than no gun or a stick or knife. B: I doubt there is one sane person who will be paid $1,000,000 to stand 50 yards downrange from even a .22 magnum fired from a NAA. C: The Rimfire has reliability issues but does anyone know the percentage? Even if 1/5 failures was the case (and it is not) then I still have 4 or 5 shots that are still good. Since many of us consider the NAA to be a belly gun or a 1-3 yard protector under dire circumstances, and be it that at 1-3 yards I won't miss you, and be it that I have between 4-5 "reliable" shots, and be it that 99.9% of the people reading this wouldn't stand 50 yards from this caliber voluntarily, I believe the conclusion is that this is a viable weapon and a viable caliber/load for SD under unique situations. If I happened to have a Single Six in a 4.5 inch barrel or even a 10/22 in .22LR, an attacker would never be allowed to within 7 yards, and gentlemen, the .22LR from a 10/22 has been known to do the job time after time.
George29, the way you get to conclusions is not the same as I. Your conclusions and the way you see them happening are also not the same as I. Please do not generalize your opinion as mine. There are many things in life I wouldn't let someone else do to or at me and many of them have nothing to do with how I would prepare for self defense.
Vern Humphrey
Member
I am reminded of a review in a gun mag of a .22 S&W snubbie. The author talked about "putting one in the bad guy's tear ducts."
Hmmm . . . lemesee, I have a gun that has say a 5-10% misfire rate, and to win I have to put one in his tear duct. He has a gun with maybe a 0.00001% misfire rate, and he only has to put one somewhere in my torso.
Does that sound fair to you?
Hmmm . . . lemesee, I have a gun that has say a 5-10% misfire rate, and to win I have to put one in his tear duct. He has a gun with maybe a 0.00001% misfire rate, and he only has to put one somewhere in my torso.
Does that sound fair to you?
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