.223 Saiga AK's - better than 7.62?

[The Mighty Beagle]

Just wondering if anyone has experience with both guns ... conventional wisdom would tell me to get the 7.62x39 for the cheap ammo and deer-huntability, but ...

There's just an allure to the .223 version - might it actually be more fun? I want as little recoil as possible, and would think that it would kick less. I had a 7.62 AK years ago and was not impressed with how long it took my crosshairs to get back on target. If I could get something that would keep my muzzle down a little more, that would be great. Plus, while .223 is more expensive to buy, I can reload it much, much cheaper than the 7.62 can be reloaded, using once-fired brass I already have.

Also, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot a deer with a .223 given the right shot came available. I just think it's a better cartridge, but then I've seen deer run off never to be found when shot with the 7.62, so I'm biased. I guess this all depends on accuracy of the .223 Saiga though.

Is it hunting accurate?

Would the .223 have as much re-sale value? Would either Saiga be as easy to sell as the SAR-1?

 

[Preacherman]

In terms of ammo cost, the .223 is roughly comparable to the 7.62x39 - plenty of milsurp and low-cost ammo out there. However, there are a couple of other factors to consider:

1. Noise and flash: The .223, in my experience, out of a 16" barrel, has far more muzzle blast and flash than 7.62x39. (Try standing next to each of these rifles on the range and you'll know exactly what I'm talking about!!! ).

2. Muzzle jump: Yes, the .223 has less muzzle jump than 7.62x39: however, installation of a muzzle brake will tame the latter quite easily. There are several good (and legal!) muzzle brakes available.

3. Magazine availability: The 7.62x39 Saiga can easily (and legally) be converted to take standard AK47 30-round magazines. AFAIK, the .223 version cannot be converted so easily or at such low cost. However, I could be wrong on this - I'm going by comments made to me by owners of both calibers. I'd check this out further.

Personally, I went for the 7.62x39, and am installing a muzzle brake. I have good .223's in other types of rifle, and the Saiga's AK action was originally designed for the 7.62x39, so why not go with the original?

 

[Dave R]

I shoot a .223 AK (SAR-3) and can add a coupla thoughts.

-Yep, recoil is less.
-Trajectory is a lot flatter. I have fun shooting out to 300 yards with minimal drop.
-Several people have reported that .223 AK's are more accurate than 7.62X39. Not sure I believe it....

Mine will shoot MOA or near under very specific circumstances--cold barrel and favorite ammo (PMP Gazelle or handloads). But with Wolf ammo and a hot barrel its more like 5" at 100 yards. Pretty standard.

I have heard nice things about the Saiga. It is generally considered a higher-quality AK because of the milled receiver (which also maked heavier than a stamped receiver like a SAR). Do a search at AK-47.net and you can prolly get plenty of comments.

 

[The Mighty Beagle]

Thanks guys, definitely more food for thought. This forum is so helpful.

I think the biggest reason someone might want the .223 might be to fulfill the urge for a Mini 14 at a much less expensive price. However, the Saiga seems somewhat heavier, so I don't know how handy it would be.

As for noise, I forgot just how loud my Mini 14 was even with its 18" barrel. Definitely one thing I didn't like about it, other than the accuracy problems of course.

 

[762x51]

AFAIK, the .223 version cannot be converted so easily or at such low cost. However, I could be wrong on this - I'm going by comments made to me by owners of both calibers. I'd check this out further.

Somewhat true. The conversion is about the same as the 7.62x39 conversion....anyone who knows how to do one version can do the other. When finished, you can use slightly modified 5.45x39 mags with Robinson Armament followers. The mags arent as cheap as some 7.62 mags out there, but still not all that expensive either.

 

[Dave R]

Beagle, if you want a light .223 AK, check the SAR-3. Stamped receiver, 6.8lbs. Run ya about $300, or maybe $350 with shipping and FFL fee.

 

[MAKOwner]

A Saiga should be about the same weight as a SAR3, Saigas also have stamped receivers, not milled. I don't believe they use the RPK style stamped receiver either (like a VEPR), should just be a standard stamped receiver unless I'm mistaken. They might turn out slightly lighter actually with it's synthetic stock vs wood on the other choices...

A couple guys on ak-47.net converted them to use the same .223 30 rnd Weiger mags that the SAR3 likes. Apparently not much of a problem, although Weigers are a little more expensive ($20ish) than the cheapest 7.62 mags.

 

[The Mighty Beagle]

Dave, I think I'm a bit late on the SAR 3's ... unless I'm mistaken, distributors are out of them for good.

Besides, I kept hearing about how I'd have to replace the hammer in them or something due to softness. Believe me, if I was at all mechancially inclined, I'da bought one!

A .223 conversion Saiga might be even better than the factory set-up, which comes with a synthetic magazine which I don't really care for. Metal 30 rounders are just what the Saiga needs.

 

[benEzra]

Mighty Beagle,
If recoil is your chief concern, you might also consider the SAR-2 in 5.45x39mm (AK-74 round). It's probably not powerful enough for most deer, however. I suspect they might be easier to come by than SAR-3s.

Trigger slap is an issue with some SARs, but those of more recent manufacture seem to be better. My SAR-1 (a 2002, I think) has the cleanest trigger of any military-style rifle I've every shot except my Finn M39--better than my mini-14, too.

As far as durability, the stamped receiver (AKM style) is widely reputed to be more durable than the milled receiver of the original AK, from what I've gathered.

 

[WonderNine]

.223 is LOUD out of a 16" barrel

 

[The Mighty Beagle]

BenEZRA,

The 5.45 is a great idea, though I haven't seen any SAR2's around lately. I'll keep an eye out though.

 

[benEzra]

If you don't mind shelling out a bit more cash, Robinson Arms chambers the VEPR in .223, as well as 5.45x39 and 7.62x39. Here's the .223 version:
http://www.robarm.com/RA_vepr2_223.htm
These are based on the heavier RPK receiver and so are a little more front-heavy than a SAR. Major parts are made in Russia, but they have enough US parts to have pistol grip stocks, etc.

 

[MAKOwner]

On the topic of 5.45x39 I really love my little SAR2, such a sweet shooter. Recoil and muzzle rise are noticeably much less than my SAR1. Really love the little sucker, ammo availability isn't really an issue now, but you never know, the SAR3 has a pretty big advantage there as .223 will always be available in some form...