.223 should be illegal for deer hunting.

[Newtosavage]

I know this is a controversial opinion, but I don't care.

I've long thought the .223 is far too underpowered for ethical deer hunting. Yesterday afternoon, against my better judgement, that opinion was reinforced as a friend of mine attempted to take two deer with his bolt-action .223. I really didn't want him using that rifle but I also didn't want to offend him by saying he didn't have enough gun.

So, he shot the first doe at about 100 yards and she dropped, then got up and ran, then dropped, then took some time to expire. Not exactly a clean, ethical kill but she died.

On to the next doe. Shot her at 120 yards and she ran. He, myself and a friend of mine looked for blood for over an hour. We scoured that entire area and found NOTHING. All three of us are experienced bowhunters and know how to find blood. She did not leave a drop, and we never found that deer.

Back to the 1st deer - the bullet (A Remington 55 gr. soft point core-lokt) never exited, and he recovered it in the deer. It made a nice mushroom, but the fact that it had only a single .22 caliber entrance hole and no exit hole certainly explains why the 2nd deer left ZERO blood on the ground.

My buddy is a good shot. These deer were both inside 125 yards. The .223 is simply not enough gun, and he admitted that after losing that doe. He's getting a bigger deer rifle.

I know lots and lots of folks love their AR's these days, and good for them. I'm not a fan of either the AR platform or the .223 round, especially for deer hunting. Why states allow the .223 for hunting whitetails is beyond me. For God's sake, if you're going to hunt deer with a .223, please shoot them in the head only.

Rant off.

 

[mcb]

I guess I can't really criticise 223 for deer when I spent several years hunting them with a 410 slug gun. If 223 is legal in your state have at it. Good shot placement and good bullets almost always trumps caliber, cartridge and raw kinetic energy.

 

[VoodooMountain]

Well I won’t argue that the 223 isn’t a good deer round because it isn’t but modern bullets and faster twist rates have certainly upped the ante for the 223.

55 gr sp bullets aren’t a great choice for the 223. Barnes, 64gr. Winchester pp, or 60 grain partition would all work better.

 

[PapaG]

Boy, are you opening up a number ten sized can of worms. I'm glad you did. There are bullets that will do the job but a majority of the 223 shooters don't know about them. I wish I had a buck ($) for every guy who came in the shop telling tales about their successes or failures with the 224. Many more of the latter but they were using varmint bullets.

 

[Newtosavage]

I'm not trying to stir up controversy, but some people really need to think about what they are doing. I have no problem if they love their .223's. Just don't use them on deer-sized game.

For something the size of a deer, you need two holes big enough to lay blood on the ground. Period.

 

[SoonerMedic]

My wife's doe from a few weeks ago. Inside 100 yards and I will use a .223 all day. Winchester Deer Season XP.

Edit: This doe ran no more than 30-40 yards and was expired in under 2 minutes. That's 2 minutes MAX

 

[Newtosavage]

2 MINUTES? Seriously? You think that's good?

 

[Demi-human]

I too, think humans should only shoot what I think is good, at things that I think are right.

 

[Demi-human]

How long does it take to expire from an arrow?

On to the next doe. Shot her at 120 yards and she ran. He, myself and a friend of mine looked for blood for over an hour. We scoured that entire area and found NOTHING. All three of us are experienced bowhunters and know how to find blood. She did not leave a drop, and we never found that deer.


My buddy is a good shot.

Evidently, not

 

[Art Eatman]

"Back to the 1st deer - the bullet (A Remington 55 gr. soft point core-lokt) never exited,"

Looks to me like the cartridge is being blamed, rather than a very poor choice of bullet.

 

[1stmarine]

Generalizations and Categorizations are bad because they lead to subjective and arbitrary interpretation.

In general most AR15 cartriges and popular ammo are not the best choice for hunting game when we start getting into certain weight or other situations
but rather than saying this XYZ caliber is not good we should understand what we are trying to do and why might or not be a good choice.
Intially any caliber in 22 bore one must be careful because the bullet selection. There are good bullets for hunting deer but a popular inexpensive 55gr fmj
might not be the best choice no matter if it is a 22-250 or a 223.

Same issue with a 6mm 55gr bullet, 6.5mm 90gr, 7mm 100gr, 30 caliber 110gr or a 115gr 35 cal bullet.
light for caliber bullets should be avoided and sectional density should be at least .2 with a good terminal design and substantial speed on the target.

So more times than not errors come down to bad choices in terms of bullets, ammo and range/angle limitations.
specially with service calibers any budget, surplus or practice ammo should be avoided and that is why we see so many problems
and this lead to the 22 caliber guns being banned in places. Not because the bore but because of the lack of proper hunting education.
If one has a lower there is a pretty easy route taht is the 6.8 SPC that is a reliable deer and hog hunter but that doesn't mean one cannot
hunt with other calibers including the 223, whisper/blackout, 30 carbine, x39, etc... but one must give consideration to ammo, range and game weight restrictions.
No matter what we do we always need to keep in mind those limitations and be honest about our equipment and own skills and capabilities.

223 will not be my first choice because I have other calibers that are much better and I don't have anything to prove to anyone.
But this doesn't mean that I could not hunt with the 223 and a good bullet like a barnes 62gr TTSX or a 75gr swift among a few others.
The assortment is not that big for larger game but there are good bullets with the right speed and twist.
The 223 can be extremely accurate (repeatable, consistent accuracy) and that means reliable neck shots too when other shots are not possible.

Loosing game should not be blamed on the caliber. The whole blame is on the hunter who possibly hurt that animal and lost it and
perhaps didn't make the right choice in the first place including the ammo and not excluding saying no to a shot.
But we are humans and chit happens... but hopefully we learn from those horrible mistakes.

What a powerful reliable and plentiful deer cartrige? The 308 winchester is the go-to cartridge anywhere in the world. 30-06 too.

 

[SoonerMedic]

2 MINUTES? Seriously? You think that's good?

From the time that she took the shot to the time we put the rifle on safe, both exited the box blind and walked 75-80 yards she was expired. I didn’t set my stopwatch.

 

[SoonerMedic]

Shot taken in blue circle. Distance from box to lungs was approx 45-50 yards. Distance ran from impact was less than the distance shot from.

 

[Newtosavage]

How long does it take to expire from an arrow?


Evidently, not

I've killed far more deer with an arrow than with a bullet.

The last one took about 8 seconds, if that and fell 30 yards from where I shot it. Half that time, it was dead and didn't know it.

Next question.

 

[Newtosavage]

1st Marine,

You say don't blame the cartridge then recommend one that is easily 3x the size? I'm confused.

 

[Newtosavage]

but a popular inexpensive 55gr fmj
might not be the best choice no matter if it is a 22-250 or a 223.

Who said it was an fmj? I was pretty clear it was a Remington Core-lokt. I can show you a picture of the mushroomed bullet.

Sorry if this thread doesn't fit the .223 narrative. Great caliber for it's intended purpose - to wound soldiers on the battlefield. Just shouldn't be used to quickly and humanely dispatch deer.

 

[1stmarine]

1st Marine,

You say don't blame the cartridge then recommend one that is easily 3x the size? I'm confused.

Let me outline it for you:
- 223 is not to blame, the bullet / ammo choice is.
- 223 is not my first choice same as any of the popular AR15 calibers but if I have to use the 223 it can be used with careful selection.
- 6.8 is a easy way to get a better hunter upper in a easy proven inxpensive platform.
- 308 W is a popular deer, hog, elk ..do it all cartridge anywhere in the world.
- But 223 can be used to kill deer efficiently just keep in mind will not give you the margin of error and one must be careful with bullet
and ammo selection.

Instead of making something illegal why we don't properly educate people? IMO think education is a much better approach than senseless
enforcement of everything.

 

[SoonerMedic]

I don’t think anybody mentioned this, but shooting a deer in the head ESPECIALLY with a small caliber round is NOT San ethical shot. More times than not it’ll ricochet and or just wound the animal. That’s a poor decision to make.

 

[1stmarine]

Who said it was an fmj? I was pretty clear it was a Remington Core-lokt. I can show you a picture of the mushroomed bullet.

Sorry if this thread doesn't fit the .223 narrative. Great caliber for it's intended purpose - to wound soldiers on the battlefield. Just shouldn't be used to quickly and humanely dispatch deer.

Nobody is saying you use a 55gr FMJ. I am saying because it is a common mistake. Core-lokt 55gr is not a good one neither.
There is is no 223 narrative anywhere.
The actual casing is irrelevant given proper bullet choices and impact speeds for the objetive at hand.
I agree is not the first deer caliber that pops in mind. None of the popular AR15 calibers are other than the 6.8 that somehow evolved in a leading hunting cartrige for this platform.
But this doesn't mean it cannot kill deer effectively or it should be banned because of a bad choice and/or experience.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

55gr? Small deer have been ethically hunted with 60gr to 70gr bullets at 3000+ fps in Europe, UK and Ireland in European 5.6mm cartridges similar to the .223. Bullet choice determines whether it is a good idea.

.223 with varmint bullets should be illegal for deer hunting. With bullets appropriate for medium game (roe deer or eastern whitetail) it is acceptable. I helped dress two deer that were taken properly with .223, both one shot kills, with proper bullets. None lighter than 60 gr though.

(That said, personally, I have gone on deer hunts by invitation, did not take a deer, but by choice carried either a .30-30 170gr or .303 Brit 180 gr. because. well, tradition.)

 

[1stmarine]

I should correct there is on 55gr FMJ that is a very good performer even with faster twists in modern rifles that is another issue with old bullet designs in modern twists.
That bullet is the Norinco 55gr fmj that for whatever reason tumbles like crazy like originally designed something harder to see these days.
Nate from Ballistics Studies did some tests in small to large goats and every single norinco destroyed the internals.
The only problem is this ammo is hard to find but will do a number in the internals. In any case I don't think I would go for a cheap bullet given a few of the premium
ones available in both solid and bonded version.

The best thing is to talk about specific animals, bullets and situations and match those bullets to game and weight by the book.

Otherwise we run into arbitrary generalizations that don't really help educate anyone.

 

[MEHavey]

Most every "recommended" 223 bullet I've ever seen for medium game on the boards is 62-69 grains/SP
I'd first look at the cartridge load-out here, not blame the rifle/cartridge in sweeping dismissal.

 

[redneck]

I think you should hunt with whatever you want as long as it's legal, and I have nothing against the .223, but at the same time I don't understand why so many people want to use it. Its like they all want to prove it's a great hunting round and then they end up using all the reasons it isn't a great choice to prove their point.

9 out of 10 commercially available loads for it aren't suitable for hunting, making ammo difficult to find.
You have to limit your range
You have to limit yourself to ideal shots (broadside for example, no extreme quartering shots)

Just to play devils advocate, Sooner posted a pic of a doe shot with a .223 and it broke one rib and doesn't appear to have exited on what appears to be a broadside shot.

I shot this doe on an extreme quartering shot with a .450 bushmaster, it separated the shoulder, cut multiple ribs on the nearside and and left a hole over in inch wide on exit
Entrance- Exit- Nearside ribs

The 450 is also available in the AR15 platform, is also accurate to 150 yards and will kill a deer from any angle as long as you make a good shot.
There are several cartridges available to the AR15 platform that are better suited to hunting deer than the .223, and if you open things up to bolt actions, lever actions etc. the possibilities are almost endless.

Yes the .223 is capable of taking deer, when all of the conditions are right, but they are much more strict conditions. If someone wants to handicap himself and have some added challenge, in similar spirit to handgun hunting or bow hunting that's perfectly fine, but it's usually those same guys who turn around and want to insist it's not a handicap. It's pretty much a dead horse at this point.

 

[Saddlebag Preacher]

I and other farmers around here find a few deer that have arrows stuck in them and not recovered. My neighbor shot a buck last year and when he went to butcher it, the shoulder was full of puss from a broken off arrowhead. I see nothing wrong with a 62 grain or higher soft point if it is legal and the shot is good. I must admit, if anyone has hunted long and are honest, sometime or another a bad shot will occur and the deer will not drop in it's tracks.

I won't bow hunt, because I never got the hang of it and be able to hit anything farther than 10 feet. I've also seen a lot of bow hunter videos and don't think I've seen one where the deer drops in the spot it was shot.

 

[gspn]

Sorry if this thread doesn't fit the .223 narrative.

It's not that your thread doesn't fit a narrative, it's that it lacks even the slightest hint of analytic rigor or logic. You are using a sample size of two deer to draw sweeping generalizations in an attempt to sway our opinion about the effectiveness of a caliber. On top of that you suggest that if people choose to use this underpowered round, that they take head shots...which is ironic because that is considered by yet many others to be an unethical shot (lots of stories about wounded deer as a result of attempted head shots). You are so prejudiced against the .223 that you are trying to make the evidence fit your theory, rather than the other way around.

For the record, I don't use a .223 for deer. I use a 7mm Rem Mag for just about everything. By your standard of needing to leave at least two holes and a blood trail I guess the 7 Mag isn't a good deer rifle either. Many times I find the core fragmented through the lungs with the cup and jacket on the far side of the hide...producing just one hole; yet I've never lost one.

I'd further guess that if the three of you are as good at tracking as you say you are (and I have no reason to doubt that), and you found no blood...it's because a deer with no holes in it doesn't leave any blood to find. There are two potential outcomes: he missed, or he hit it and it left no blood trail. If three seasoned and talented trackers find no blood or sign anywhere, then probability tells me your friend missed the second deer...but this is still just my best guess based on years of experience. I presume you are ignoring the possibility of a miss because it doesn't support your theory about the .223.

This thread is the type of thing that makes this site worse. It's opinion stated as fact, backed up by bickering. There are many intelligent and experienced people on this site, if you approach topics like this with a different tone and perspective it would would improve the quality of conversation, and foster a better environment for learning. Lots of people on the site are here to learn. They may not post often or get involved, but they watch conversations like this and draw conclusions. I like to think we can provide those people with a "smart" atmosphere that chases truths through honest discussions and a logical, analytical approach to answering questions.

Sometimes the answer is as simple as "I don't like it, but it's legal, and if used properly can get the job done." That's kind of how I see the .223 within the context of deer hunting.