.223 should be illegal for deer hunting.

[Newtosavage]

gspn, I happen to have a degree in science so I am familiar with logic and analytic rigor. I'm fully aware a sample size of two isn't enough to draw a conclusion from, but I am familiar with more than just these two instances. These are simply the two latest instances and I chose to state my opinion based on the facts I observed. And the facts are that one tiny hole does not a blood trail make, and even then, it took the deer some time to expire (just as the other poster experienced as well). I actually heard the second shot hit the deer. Any experienced hunter knows that sound and it was unmistakable. Because I know the individual doing the shooting, and because of where he placed the shot on the first deer, I have no reason to believe the second shot was any different or worse. But it's hunting and you never really know until you know.

Anyway, it is legal and I don't think it should be. Just my opinion based on my understanding of ballistics and my experience as a biologist and hunter for 38 years. But state game agencies are controlled by politics and appointed boards of directors, and so long as they are, we will see things that simply don't make good sense.

 

[Newtosavage]

Let me outline it for you:
- 223 is not to blame, the bullet / ammo choice is.
- 223 is not my first choice same as any of the popular AR15 calibers but if I have to use the 223 it can be used with careful selection.
- 6.8 is a easy way to get a better hunter upper in a easy proven inxpensive platform.
- 308 W is a popular deer, hog, elk ..do it all cartridge anywhere in the world.
- But 223 can be used to kill deer efficiently just keep in mind will not give you the margin of error and one must be careful with bullet
and ammo selection.

Instead of making something illegal why we don't properly educate people? IMO think education is a much better approach than senseless
enforcement of everything.

Because you can't expect to educate everyone to the point of bullet selection. They are going to grab what they can off the shelves at Wal-mart and go hunt. So it's the responsibility of the state wildlife agencies to ensure that people are hunting with weapons that can do the job quickly and humanely.

My "narrative" comment was the fact that everyone and their brother these days is hunting with AR-15's in .223/5.56 - a weapon that was never designed to hunt deer - because they want to use their new toys. Grabbing dad's old .270 or '06 just isn't as sexy as taking a "MSR" into the woods these days.

We have a responsibility to the game we hunt to dispatch it quickly and humanely. Anyone that thinks the .223 is the answer for quickly and humanely dispatching whitetails versus another higher powered caliber is telling themselves a story IMO.

 

[gspn]

gspn, I happen to have a degree in science so I am familiar with logic and analytic rigor. I'm fully aware a sample size of two isn't enough to draw a conclusion from, but I am familiar with more than just these two instances. These are simply the two latest instances and I chose to state my opinion based on the facts I observed. And the facts are that one tiny hole does not a blood trail make, and even then, it took the deer some time to expire (just as the other poster experienced as well). I actually heard the second shot hit the deer. Any experienced hunter knows that sound and it was unmistakable. Because I know the individual doing the shooting, and because of where he placed the shot on the first deer, I have no reason to believe the second shot was any different or worse. But it's hunting and you never really know until you know.

Anyway, it is legal and I don't think it should be. Just my opinion based on my understanding of ballistics and my experience as a biologist and hunter for 38 years. But state game agencies are controlled by politics and appointed boards of directors, and so long as they are, we will see things that simply don't make good sense.

OK. I'm down with that. It gives me a lot more perspective on where you're coming from. thx.

 

[Newtosavage]

I and other farmers around here find a few deer that have arrows stuck in them and not recovered. My neighbor shot a buck last year and when he went to butcher it, the shoulder was full of puss from a broken off arrowhead. I see nothing wrong with a 62 grain or higher soft point if it is legal and the shot is good. I must admit, if anyone has hunted long and are honest, sometime or another a bad shot will occur and the deer will not drop in it's tracks.

I won't bow hunt, because I never got the hang of it and be able to hit anything farther than 10 feet. I've also seen a lot of bow hunter videos and don't think I've seen one where the deer drops in the spot it was shot.

I'm a lifelong bowhunter. It's my primary method for hunting whitetails. There are bad shots with a bow just like there are bad shots with a rifle. The difference usually is that the bad shot with a bow knows he hit the deer while the bad shot with the rifle assumes they missed because the deer didn't drop on the spot. The same result occurs from both instances - a wounded deer. Anyone who can't place an arrow exactly where they intend at the distance they shoot shouldn't be bowhunting, and the same goes with rifle hunters.

But taking a .223 after deer is akin to taking a 25# bow with a field point after whitetails. Can you kill it? Sure. But why chance it.

 

[SoonerMedic]

)

Just to play devils advocate, Sooner posted a pic of a doe shot with a .223 and it broke one rib and doesn't appear to have exited on what appears to be a broadside shot.

I passed through the right quarter, right chest wall, left chest wall (both sides through ribs), and I was unable to find the exit on the other side.

 

[SoonerMedic]

Because you can't expect to educate everyone to the point of bullet selection. They are going to grab what they can off the shelves at Wal-mart and go hunt. So it's the responsibility of the state wildlife agencies to ensure that people are hunting with weapons that can do the job quickly and humanely.

My "narrative" comment was the fact that everyone and their brother these days is hunting with AR-15's in .223/5.56 - a weapon that was never designed to hunt deer - because they want to use their new toys. Grabbing dad's old .270 or '06 just isn't as sexy as taking a "MSR" into the woods these days.

We have a responsibility to the game we hunt to dispatch it quickly and humanely. Anyone that thinks the .223 is the answer for quickly and humanely dispatching whitetails versus another higher powered caliber is telling themselves a story IMO.

I take mine because it’s the rifle I have, am familiar with inside and out and am comfortable shooting at short distances. I don’t have another option at the moment. I am not a wealthy person and can’t afford to spend $500+ on a rifle at this point. My family’s well being comes first and I’m plenty confident that my rifle is sufficient at the ranges I intend on hunting.

Edit: my kills have been humane by the way.

 

[CLP]

...hunted with 60gr to 70gr bullets at 3000+ fps

A 70 gr bullet at 3000+ fps sounds (I'm not getting out of bed to go downstairs to peruse reloading manuals) pretty hot for a 223 Rem.
However, as many have stated, there's a difference between the .224/5.56 we shoot out of AR's and the full list of cartridges that utilize .224 caliber bullets.
A Speer .224 70gr semi-spitzer fired from an rifle chambered in 223 at 2700 fps has less than 1000 ft/lbs of energy at 50 yards- most would argue that's a paltry amount of oomph. At 150 yards that bullet is cruising at just 2100 fps and has less than 700 ft/lbs of energy.
That same bullet launched at 3500 fps in a 223 WSSM has 1415 ft/lbs of energy at 100yds- 40% more than the traditional cutoff for the minimum amount of bullet energy to kill a deer and at 150 yards it's flying at 2795 fps and still hits with 1215 ft/lbs of energy.
I think you're in the minority if you believe that 224 caliber bullets can't kill deer- they're used all the time and harvest plenty of deer. However, one has to search a little harder when looking for a good hunting bullet in this caliber. Most of the heavier .224 bullets on the market are match bullets and not designed for hunting (and I know there's others- I just mentioned one example). And the reason is because the 224 caliber bullet cannot reliably kill deer consistently.
I think the debate centers around whether it's ethical to hunt with bullets in this caliber and I would agree with the OP simply because Class II animals succumb best to bullets with sectional densities over 0.2 and most of the larger 224 caliber bullets barely approach this and I only see one that has a SD of 0.214 (Swift 75 grain).
Once the bullet gets to the target, one desires the bullet to then penetrate it and damage vital organs, nerves, vessels, and anything that will minimize the animal's departure and demise. 224 caliber bullets perform marginally in this regard. One can claim success but there are undoubtedly many deer shot with 224 caliber bullets that are wounded, run off, aren't found, and suffer a prolonged death. That's not what ethical hunters want for the deer and it shouldn't be what any of us want the appearance of hunting to be by the general public- we want to bring people into shooting and hunting and if the first thought that comes into the mind of a nonhunter is that of wounding a deer with a marginally effective bullet and that animal suffering before it dies then that person not likely to ever go hunting- or possibly even shooting in general. If the thought that comes to mind is the image of hunters being primarily concerned about dispatching their prey effectively and humanely with the least amount of suffering (and subsequently filling their freezer) then that's someone who's more likely to go hunting- which is good for us all- and managed hunting is good for game too. That last point is significant as well since today's deer aren't the deer of 30+ years ago- at least not in Alabama. Today's deer are bigger and healthier.
Bullets that perform consistently should be the minimum standard considered for the use in hunting game in any Class and for deer and other Class II animals that means bullets larger than 224 caliber.
That being said, the 224 caliber bullet is versatile and has a wide ranging role in Class I game from rabbits to squirrels, ground hogs, yotes, etc.

 

[Newtosavage]

Sooner, this is the same reason my buddy took his. It's what he had and he was familiar with it. And he knew the shots would be close. He's not a wealthy person either, but Cabelas is clearing out Savage Axis rifles for $179 after rebate, and for another $30 you can put a Simmons 4x scope on it that will last a lifetime. I have them on two of my rifles and they have never failed me. So for $219, a person has their pick of calibers in modern hunting rifles these days.

My daughter killed her first two whitetails (including a big 8 pt. at 130 yards) with a $179 CVA Hunter in .243 that we got at Academy. I added a $30 Ebay Bushnell scope. Dropped them both with one shot each.

My point is, there are better options for not a whole lot of money if someone wants them.

 

[BWS]

As a data point;One of the biggest whitetails I ever shot....blew the top half of his heart out the exit hole.30-06 180g handloads broadside at 75yds.

He took off like I'd hit him with a cattle prod?Ran 275 yds,mostly uphill,jumped two wire fences and finally ended up in this big lot of tangles of chest high briars N stuff.Wasn't that hard of a track but won't what I'd ever seen before?And have had "damage permits" killing enough deer to overflow a tractor trailer.

 

[Newtosavage]

One can claim success but there are undoubtedly many deer shot with 224 caliber bullets that are wounded, run off, aren't found, and suffer a prolonged death. That's not what ethical hunters want for the deer and it shouldn't be what any of us want the appearance of hunting to be by the general public- we want to bring people into shooting and hunting and if the first thought that comes into the mind of a nonhunter is that of wounding a deer with a marginally effective bullet and that animal suffering before it dies then that person not likely to ever go hunting- or possibly even shooting in general.

Exactly.

 

[SoonerMedic]

Sooner, this is the same reason my buddy took his. It's what he had and he was familiar with it. And he knew the shots would be close. He's not a wealthy person either, but Cabelas is clearing out Savage Axis rifles for $179 after rebate, and for another $30 you can put a Simmons 4x scope on it that will last a lifetime. I have them on two of my rifles and they have never failed me. So for $219, a person has their pick of calibers in modern hunting rifles these days.

My daughter killed her first two whitetails (including a big 8 pt. at 130 yards) with a $179 CVA Hunter in .243 that we got at Academy. I added a $30 Ebay Bushnell scope. Dropped them both with one shot each.

My point is, there are better options for not a whole lot of money if someone wants them.

My rifle was purchased several years ago and I currently can’t afford a new rifle. It’s not something I got recently. I’m not going to trade my rifle in for a different rifle. When I can afford it I’ll get another. In the meantime I’ll sight my dad’s .308 in before next season and be ready then since I might have a different set up by then.

 

[Newtosavage]

As a data point;One of the biggest whitetails I ever shot....blew the top half of his heart out the exit hole.30-06 180g handloads broadside at 75yds.

He took off like I'd hit him with a cattle prod?Ran 275 yds,mostly uphill,jumped two wire fences and finally ended up in this big lot of tangles of chest high briars N stuff.Wasn't that hard of a track but won't what I'd ever seen before?And have had "damage permits" killing enough deer to overflow a tractor trailer.

One of the longest tracking jobs I've ever had from a rifle-shot deer was a doe that I shot at 80 yards with an '06. Literally blew up her heart, and somehow she still managed to run over 150 yards. The BIG difference here is that she had two big holes and was leaving blood all over the place.

If my buddy's deer had left even a drop of blood, one of us would have found it. I cannot overstate the amount of blood trailing experience the three of us have collectively. I can't think of three guys together who have more. Fact is, that deer was hit. We all heard the shot and the impact. I have every reason to believe it was hit well. And yet we never found a drop of blood or the deer. I blame it solely on the choice of caliber. Argue bullet selection if you want, but at the end of the day, you're still dealing with a marginal caliber on deer even with the best bullets.

 

[CLP]

but by choice carried either a .30-30 170gr ...because. well, tradition.)

It's tradition for a reason. The 30-30 consistently kills deer.
That 170 grain bullet from an old Winchester 94 (it helps to envision a pre-'64 model) fired at 2230 fps has just over 1000 ft/lbs of energy at 150 yards- an effective amount of energy to kill a deer coupled with a sectional density of 0.256 to ensure proper penetration. It's a better caliber to kill deer consistently.

 

[BWS]

I can make a case for NOT having exit holes.When damage permit,killing large numbers of deer....with cattle around.Can't control where bullet fragments are headed?243's with JACKED up handloads,we want the bullets to come completely unglued.

So,there"can" be instances that call for different tactics.If there's ANY chance that you are going to take less than perfect shot angles.....bring more gun.But if you have plenty of time and experience,waiting for the shot,you can use smaller more frangible bullets.

 

[BWS]

I have been called in by guys to track deer on some VERY difficult jobs.Get help.Learn NOT to walk ON the blood trail.Be extremely patient.Bucks "seem" to go straight to cover.....does run in their more normal BIG circles.

 

[CLP]

you can use smaller more frangible bullets.

No. Not for deer. Frangible bullets don't penetrate and are not to hunt with. It is not their purpose by design.

 

[Demi-human]

I've always been told "it is the Indian not the arrow". Evidently this does not carry over to firearms.

And yet there is a member who lives in the wilds of Alaska, who routinely takes many Caribou with a twenty-two rimfire.

To be upset at a cartridge is ridiculous. To be upset at other humans lack of education less so.

One should always be careful when they seek to outlaw objects. For they have really nothing to do with behavior.


By extension, shotguns with slugs should be banned as well. Brenneke (sp) slugs are expensive and hard to find, thus most will just stop by the department store and get what ever is there. Which will be inaccurate, hopelessly wounding deer in the foot. Therefore we must outlaw slug gun hunting because I don't like it.

This is called fascism. And I hope you understood my initial post was sarcasm.

 

[Demi-human]

Didn't we just do this in Ohio?

 

[edwardware]

I know this is a controversial opinion, but I don't care.

Good to know. Me neither.

. . . A Remington 55 gr. soft point core-lokt. . .

It's not the worst bullet you could use for deer, but it surely is a remarkably poor choice.

My buddy is a good shot.

Your confidence is heartwarming, but the evidence you've just presented indicates otherwise.

So your buddy shows up with the wrong ammo for the task, flubs one shot out of two, and you propose a law. Sounds like Teddy K proposing to ban bridges. . .

I once read a story of a hunter killing a deer with an arrow shaft in it from the previous season; I propose to ban archery hunting.

 

[redneck]

I passed through the right quarter, right chest wall, left chest wall (both sides through ribs), and I was unable to find the exit on the other side.

Did it exit and you didn't find the bullet? or did you not find the bullet or an exit?
Either way, at least it broke ribs on both sides. As I said earlier I don't have a problem with hunting with a .223 at all as long as you recognize its limitations. Taking responsible shots is something we all have to do no matter what cartridge we choose. My gripe is only with the guys who put .223 up on a pedestal as the ideal cartridge, a few guys here have even made snide comments about using larger calibers. Shoot what you have/want but be realistic.

 

[jmorris]

I know this is a controversial opinion, but I don't care.

I've long thought the .223 is far too underpowered for ethical deer hunting.

Yes, the moral principles of killing seems to be a touchy subject for some.

I have killed some pretty big animals with a .22 lr, they were either on their way out or in a trap though. So I have no doubt that a 223 could kill them just as fast. Then again I always thought of the 243 as the little deer round.

In any case I get so tired of people thinking that just because they hold an opinion laws should be formed around them, that’s how we end up with nutty laws in the first place and loose rights.

 

[Newtosavage]

And as I said in my OP, if a person is going to use a .223 for deer, then please at least take head shots at close range.

I have been called in by guys to track deer on some VERY difficult jobs.Get help.Learn NOT to walk ON the blood trail.Be extremely patient.Bucks "seem" to go straight to cover.....does run in their more normal BIG circles.

As have I. In fact, two of us are guys who are routinely called by friends for tracking help. In that group, we had over 100 years of blood trailing experience.

 

[Newtosavage]

So your buddy shows up with the wrong ammo for the task, flubs one shot out of two, and you propose a law. Sounds like Teddy K proposing to ban bridges. . .

I once read a story of a hunter killing a deer with an arrow shaft in it from the previous season; I propose to ban archery hunting.

I guess that's the latest strategy to "win" arguments on the internet. Accuse someone of acting like a liberal. LOL Nice.

Well, it's just my opinion, but if you'll pull your head out and look around (and above this post) - I'm not the only one who has it. It is shared by plenty of experienced hunters, and apparently some state wildlife agencies too.

 

[fallout mike]

Been working on humans for decades.... Not enough for those pesky armor plated deer.......

 

[SoonerMedic]

Did it exit and you didn't find the bullet? or did you not find the bullet or an exit?
Either way, at least it broke ribs on both sides. As I said earlier I don't have a problem with hunting with a .223 at all as long as you recognize its limitations. Taking responsible shots is something we all have to do no matter what cartridge we choose. My gripe is only with the guys who put .223 up on a pedestal as the ideal cartridge, a few guys here have even made snide comments about using larger calibers. Shoot what you have/want but be realistic.

I would honestly prefer a 6.8 or a 6.5 however I just simply can’t afford a new rifle now. I have more important things to deal with in life at the moment. The .223 is a perfect round....for ME. For my wife and I. Not for everybody. Hell, it isn’t even scoped! It has a vortex red/green dot on it. But inside 150 yards it’s deadly accurate. I just have made a decision to not take a shot past 100 yards and luckily I haven’t had the option to. I had one huge buck last year that stood at about 100 yards but I was unsure of the yardage so he ended up walking. Kinda wondering if he made it this year....