243 on Mule deer too light?

[3Crows]

This thread is reminiscent of the many "is the 6.5 Creedmore to light for __________?" Most recently elk at 300 yards.

 

[silicosys4]

The 243 with a 90 grain Ballistic tip or Accubond will be traveling at about 1900 FPS at 500 yards. It will smash bone, penetrate deeply and cause catrastrophic vital tissue damage at that range/velocity, and there is nothing marginal about it.

Lol, somebody drank the koolaid. MV is going to be closer to 1700fps at 500yards but lets say you are right. 720 ft/lbs is marginal for deer no matter how you cut it, and you are lucky if you get any kind of bullet expansion at all at that velocity.
At 500 yards all it takes is for that animal to take one step forward like I was saying, or one step to the side, and all of the sudden that bullet now has to power through a shoulder. Or punch through the gut cavity.

You wouldn't be able to tell the difference examining tissue hit by a 243 at those ranges and a 7mm-08 at those ranges.

Yea. I'll bet they both are marginal to poor performers at that range. Thats why I wouldn't hunt with EITHER a .243 or a 7mm-08 for anything larger than antelope or further than 250 yards. YMMV.

I'd venture a somewhat scientific guess that the majority of shooters would be better served by a 243 at those distances than a 30-06 or a 270. It's no secret that shooters shoot lighter recoiling rounds more accurately that heavier recoiling ones.

I'd offer the opposite opinion. I think people are still as capable of accurately shooting as powerful of calibers as they always have been. 30-06 and .270 are more capable cartridges than the .243. My first deer rifle at age 12 was a 30-06. There are better options for deer cartridges out there for recoil sensitive shooters than the .243.

 

[adcoch1]

And I'd wager a bet that at 500 yards a 7mm-08 has a lot more likelihood of still destroying the internals of a deer after hitting a rib than ANY 243 bullet would. I'm sorry, but it's a pretty narrow window ethically on game at 500 with any cartridge, let alone a 243. Possible, of course, but way more likely to muff the takedown. And now you're 500 yards away starting a blood trail on a wounded deer. Not for me, I want more margin for error.

 

[savagelover]

Well,I think that answers your question..243 is the only rifle I have left...

 

[dranrab]

Lol, somebody drank the koolaid. MV is going to be closer to 1700fps at 500yards but lets say you are right. 720 ft/lbs is marginal for deer no matter how you cut it, and you are lucky if you get any kind of bullet expansion at all at that velocity.
At 500 yards all it takes is for that animal to take one step forward like I was saying, or one step to the side, and all of the sudden that bullet now has to power through a shoulder. Or punch through the gut cavity.



Yea. I'll bet they both are marginal to poor performers at that range. Thats why I wouldn't hunt with EITHER a .243 or a 7mm-08 for anything larger than antelope or further than 250 yards. YMMV.



I'd offer the opposite opinion. I think people are still as capable of accurately shooting as powerful of calibers as they always have been. 30-06 and .270 are more capable cartridges than the .243. My first deer rifle at age 12 was a 30-06. There are better options for deer cartridges out there for recoil sensitive shooters than the .243.

Heavy on opinion. Low on experience and education. A 90 grain 6mm deer hunting bullet won't have any trouble powering through a shoulder and reaching vitals with violent force at 1800 fps.

The energy that you are scoffing at is what an average 240 grain 44 magnum has at 25 yards when fired from a handgun.

 

[dranrab]

If my eyebrow goes up any further it's gonna be behind my ear. A 90gr bullet isn't gonna "smash" anything but a prairie dog.

Tell me about your experience with 90 grain bullets on deer. Have you done any in depth reading or research?

 

[GooseGestapo]

90gr Speer .243” “HotCore”. Muzzle velocity of 3,200fps.
Range: 90yds.
Bullet failed to exit.


‘Yote dropped at the shot. Shoulder/spine hit.

Not exactly big deer or elk medicine!
Another shot at exact same location with a .270 w/130gr HotCore was a MESS!

1” blow out entry wound, 4” dia exit wound.

 

[dranrab]

I have been loading the 223 for my grandchildren for nearly 10 years. Primarily 60 grain Partitions and 64 grain Nosler Bonded. Between the two of them they probably have 50 kills. Between the 2 of them they have one shot that didn't result in a dead deer. My grandson got buck fever, hurried the shot and missed clean. 50/50 DRT and 20-40 yard death dash. Most were complete pass throughs. Vital organs turned to mush. They have killed a lot of hogs with the same results. Loaded up a box for my grand daughter for Christmas yesterday. Varmint caliber and bullets. LOL



I should add this footnote. My grandson has gone on to a 22-250. I load the same bullets for his 22-250. His other grandfather was always a 300 magnum guy. After about 4 seasons of watching the results my grandson got with the 22-250, he bought one and hung his 300 magnum up for good.

People who SEE the results of what the right bullet does simply can't argue against those results.

 

[Sav .250]

To your question.............no.

 

[Charlie Martinez]

I think the discussion has evolved into something other than what the OP asked. The OP didn't ask if there were better cartridges for mule deer, he asked if the 243 Win could do the job. I believe based on my personal experience that it can. Will a bigger caliber be better? Under some conditions the answer is yes, but that was not the original question.

 

[BreechFace]

90gr Speer .243” “HotCore”. Muzzle velocity of 3,200fps.
Range: 90yds.
Bullet failed to exit.
View attachment 1121629

‘Yote dropped at the shot. Shoulder/spine hit.

Not exactly big deer or elk medicine!
Another shot at exact same location with a .270 w/130gr HotCore was a MESS!

1” blow out entry wound, 4” dia exit wound.

Not a projectile I would use on medium game, pick the right projectile for the job. HotCore is perfect for what you used it for and a Accubond they are not.

Sounds like perfect coyote medicine though.

 

[BreechFace]

@Charlie Martinez yes these kind of threads always are subject to drift.

I wouldn’t hesitate using a 243 with a good projectile on a mulie with good familiarity with a good shooting rifle. A neck shot, double lung or heart shot will put that animal down.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I would say one's ability to shoot accurately far out weighs the cartridge selection. 6mm with a good 100 grn. bullet would be my minimum however.

I used to hunt with a guy who grew up hunting in Montana. He shot everything with a .243, including mule deer, with that rifle. I saw him shoot two mule deer one morning with a .243. He had two tags. Shot placement was his ace in the hole.

 

[WisBorn]

I think the discussion has evolved into something other than what the OP asked. The OP didn't ask if there were better cartridges for mule deer, he asked if the 243 Win could do the job. I believe based on my personal experience that it can. Will a bigger caliber be better? Under some conditions the answer is yes, but that was not the original question.

I agree! @357smallbore asked about 243win at 300yards or less with a 100 grain Partition for mule deer. He is picking a well designed bullet to get the job done. I believe that he is going to be responsible and respectful to the game he shoots at with good shot placement.

Now to make a few people mad.
All deer are not created equal.
The average weight of a mature CO mule deer buck is 250#s. Average weight of a mature midwest whitetail buck is 200#s. The average mature southern whitetail buck is 150#s.
More energy and better bullet design is needed to ensure ethical kills on larger animals.
The methods used in hunting are also part of the equation. Deer feeding from a bait pile inside 100 yards is not the same as still hunting or stand hunting naturally moving animals.

 

[dranrab]

I would say one's ability to shoot accurately far out weighs the cartridge selection. 6mm with a good bullet would be my minimum however.

I used to hunt with a guy who grew up hunting in Montana. He shot everything with a .243, including mule deer, with that rifle. I know it's possible because I saw him do it. Shot placement was his ace in the hole.

When is shot placement not the ace in the hole? I am somewhat amused by the emphasis on shot placement with smaller caliber rifles. A miss is a miss. A gut shot is a gut shot. A liver shot is a liver shot. Animals don't magically give up the ghost to a gut shot with a 300 magnum.

Where can you hit them with a 30-06 that you can't hit them with a 243 with similar results?

 

[Howa 9700]

Have lost track of number of comments that mentioned "right shot placement". I hear that a lot with references to 243.

Where exactly is that shot placement. What is the aim point? What do you hope to hit?

Edited: Ships passing in the night. Above was posted as I was typing my response. But same sentiment.

 

[CraigC]

The energy that you are scoffing at is what an average 240 grain 44 magnum has at 25 yards when fired from a handgun.

It's actually a little more than half but illustrates exactly why we need to be ignoring energy figures entirely.

Tell me about your experience with 90 grain bullets on deer. Have you done any in depth reading or research?

My experience is exactly why I no longer own a .243 or any other 6mm.

When is shot placement not the ace in the hole? I am somewhat amused by the emphasis on shot placement with smaller caliber rifles. A miss is a miss. A gut shot is a gut shot. A liver shot is a liver shot. Animals don't magically give up the ghost to a gut shot with a 300 magnum.

Where can you hit them with a 30-06 that you can't hit them with a 243 with similar results?

Not about misses or gut shots. A more capable cartridge is more forgiving of less than perfect placement and allows greater flexibility in presentation. I wouldn't expect a 6mm to make it through any deer's shoulder with regularity.

I agree! @357smallbore asked about 243win at 300yards or less with a 100 grain Partition for mule deer. He is picking a well designed bullet to get the job done.

If you're gonna use it, the Partition is a good choice. I still wouldn't hunt mule deer with such a pipsqueak cartridge.

 

[CraigC]

Have lost track of number of comments that mentioned "right shot placement". I hear that a lot with references to 243.

Where exactly is that shot placement. What is the aim point? What do you hope to hit?

When using a marginal cartridge, placement has to be perfect and it needs to avoid any major support structures. No shoulders and no Texas heart shots.

 

[dranrab]

I



My experience is exactly why I no longer own a .243 or any other 6mm.



Not about misses or gut shots. A more capable cartridge is more forgiving of less than perfect placement and allows greater flexibility in presentation. I wouldn't expect a 6mm to make it through any deer's shoulder with regularity.



If you're gonna use it, the Partition is a good choice. I still wouldn't hunt mule deer with such a pipsqueak cartridge.

Give some specifics of that experience if you don't mind. When, what bullet, where did the bullet impact, number of instances of substandard performance.

A 243 pushing a 90 grain NBT, Accubond or Partition will make it through a deer's shoulder EVERY time the impact velocity is in the 1800-1900ish range on up.

What would you consider to be the minimum caliber and weight that for a Partition to work on mule deer? Upon what real world experiences or research do you base that decision?

 

[dranrab]

When using a marginal cartridge, placement has to be perfect and it needs to avoid any major support structures. No shoulders and no Texas heart shots.

What do you mean by perfect? Do your best to qualify that for me. It might be best to tell me what organ you have to hit with a 243 that you could miss with a 300 magnum and expect a humane kill.

 

[Howa 9700]

Texas heart shot. When I was about 15, my cousin came to get me to help him get a dead deer back to the house. He was walking to his deer stand and flushed a 6 point buck from cover and it was running away from him. I would not have taken such a shot, but he did. He said it dropped as soon as he hit it. There was no bullet entry hole. Bullet went straight up the tailpipe. You could take that shot a million times and never duplicate it. I helped him hang it and gut it. Guts were a mess, and diaphragm punctured by numerous fragments that carried on in to lungs. That was with a 243. Worked that time......but not recommended.

 

[CoalTrain49]

My experience is exactly why I no longer own a .243 or any other 6mm.

You didn't tell us about your experience.

I've never heard of anyone hunting mule deer in TN.

 

[silicosys4]

When is shot placement not the ace in the hole? I am somewhat amused by the emphasis on shot placement with smaller caliber rifles. A miss is a miss. A gut shot is a gut shot. A liver shot is a liver shot. Animals don't magically give up the ghost to a gut shot with a 300 magnum.

Where can you hit them with a 30-06 that you can't hit them with a 243 with similar results?

A broadside shot that turned into a quartering away shot because the animal took a step to the side as you were pulling the trigger. Now you have to power through a foot or two of gut cavity before you reach the vitals

A non-factor for a cartridge like a .270 or 30-06
A bad scenario for that .243

 

[CoalTrain49]

A broadside shot that turned into a quartering away shot because the animal took a step to the side as you were pulling the trigger. Now you have to power through a foot or two of gut cavity before you reach the vitals

A non-factor for a cartridge like a .270 or 30-06
A bad scenario for that .243

The math doesn't work. It takes 0.3 seconds for a bullet traveling at 2800 fps to go 300 yds. Literally in the blink of an eye. I watch deer on my property almost everyday and they just don't move that fast unless they sense danger. In that situation they're about to move or already moving. In the case of about to move they will be looking in the direction where they sense the danger, or looking at you.

 

[CraigC]

Give some specifics of that experience if you don't mind. When, what bullet, where did the bullet impact, number of instances of substandard performance.

A 243 pushing a 90 grain NBT, Accubond or Partition will make it through a deer's shoulder EVERY time the impact velocity is in the 1800-1900ish range on up.

What would you consider to be the minimum caliber and weight that for a Partition to work on mule deer? Upon what real world experiences or research do you base that decision?

I already did. 100gr bullets blowing up on the ribcage of an 80lb doe.

A ballistic tip is not an Accubond or Partition. It was originally a varmint bullet and I would NEVER depend on one to bust through a shoulder at anywhere near 3000fps. At 1800fps? Whatcha gonna do when that muley is 50yds away, turn around and run 400yds???

What do you mean by perfect? Do your best to qualify that for me. It might be best to tell me what organ you have to hit with a 243 that you could miss with a 300 magnum and expect a humane kill.

I was very clear what I meant. As I said, it's not about hitting or missing. In my opinion, the diehard .243 fans operate in a vacuum. They're in the habit of waiting for that perfect broadside shot or they don't shoot and they think it's the only way anyone hunts. As a handgun hunter, I'm quite accustomed to having the option of breaking a shoulder or taking quartering shots that would not be advisable with a pasture poodle cartridge. I want an exit wound. Bullets that fragment and don't exit give me the willies.

You didn't tell us about your experience.

I've never heard of anyone hunting mule deer in TN.

Yes, I did and if a bullet fails on whitetail doe, is it going to do better on bigger deer? I was unaware that we could not hunt outside our home state.