243 Win vs 6.5 Creedmoor Bullet Ogive

[mshootnit]

You ought to compare 6 creed 60 great loads to the .243 60 gr then....... launching a 108 eldm at 3000 doesn't lose enough up front to counteract what I gain at 5-900. Now if I were to lay my hands on an 8 twist 6-284.......
Bottom line is, efficient design of case, projectile, barrel, and propellants does ultimately mean that we can enjoy improved performance on any front with less need to spend money on customized equipment.

Hey man whatever floats your boat, but just understand, for hunting if we use 1000 ft lbs. as an ethical standard, If I show up with my 24" 6mm Remington with stout 100 gr. Sierra handloads, that 108 eld-m 6mm Creed offers absolutely no practical advantage. I can go get the published data to prove it. But that is not saying the 6mm Creed isn't a nice little cartridge though. It is giving up 7.4 gr. case capacity to the 6mm Rem. according to Nosler

 

[mshootnit]

Yes, the 6.5 Creed has worked good for me.
The last 2 of 3 mule deer was killed with a 6.5 Creed (Sitting shot XP-100/142 LR AB and a Double kneeling Customized Old School Dominator/140 A-Max).
Both were close shots under 300 yards, but I am comfortable shooting further
View attachment 868493
View attachment 868494

That is a nice Muley.

I took this one with a 257 Weatherby 100 gr.
20" rifle for reference I guess
View attachment 868498
left to right 257 Weatherby, 270 Win, 270 Win., 257 Weatherby

 

[xphunter]

FWIW: I don't concern myself with energy or foot pounds for killing big game animals. I look at the minimum impact velocity for the specific bullets I use to kill big game. Shot placement and bullet design play a big part in killing. I hunt with a stick and string/archery every now and then, and have made quick kills on large bull elk and deer. It's all about cutting.

 

[mcb]

Hey man whatever floats your boat, but just understand, for hunting if we use 1000 ft lbs. as an ethical standard, If I show up with my 24" 6mm Remington with stout 100 gr. Sierra handloads, that 108 eld-m 6mm Creed offers absolutely no practical advantage. I can go get the published data to prove it. But that is not saying the 6mm Creed isn't a nice little cartridge though. It is giving up 7.4 gr. case capacity to the 6mm Rem.

I have shot a heap of deer with cartridges below 1000 ft-lbs of muzzle energy let alone 1000 ft-lbs on target, but that is probably a topic for another thread.

That said a quick look at Hodgdons reloading data an I am not seeing any meaningful difference between 6mm Rem vs 6mm CM with similar bullet weights. From my research it appears the 6mm CM only gives up ~1.9gr of H2O case volume to 6mm Remington. That is less that 4% of total case capacity. The faster twist of 6mm CM is nice, thought there is no reason you could not have a fast twist 6mm Rem made if you wanted to.

 

[xphunter]

Nice Muley.

 

[Varminterror]

@mcb - don’t bother. His paradigm counts angels on a pin, so if any data in the history of time reflects a marginal, however meaningless, uptick in velocity for an old, even obscure round, he’ll stand on it as evidence a new round which nearly replicates such performance is pointless.

You’d think someone who expresses so much experience in hunting fields would acknowledge the unimportance of slight differences in velocities between cartridges, but alas, no dice.

 

[mshootnit]

@mcb - don’t bother. His paradigm counts angels on a pin, so if any data in the history of time reflects a marginal, however meaningless, uptick in velocity for an old, even obscure round, he’ll stand on it as evidence a new round which nearly replicates such performance is pointless.

You’d think someone who expresses so much experience in hunting fields would acknowledge the unimportance of slight differences in velocities between cartridges, but alas, no dice.

Lets see your mulies Varmint -error. Or you just have some impressive paper to talk about?

 

[Walkalong]

Sitting shot XP-100/142 LR AB and a Double kneeling Customized Old School Dominator/140 A-Max

Very cool

every time I see that Dominator,

Yea, those things are super cool.

For decades I have had an XP-100 on "the list", but have never done it. I really need to.

 

[xphunter]

Very cool

Yea, those things are super cool.

For decades I have had an XP-100 on "the list", but have never done it. I really need to.

I can you help you/enable you in all things XP's....Just saying

 

[mshootnit]

@mcb - don’t bother. His paradigm counts angels on a pin, so if any data in the history of time reflects a marginal, however meaningless, uptick in velocity for an old, even obscure round, he’ll stand on it as evidence a new round which nearly replicates such performance is pointless.

You’d think someone who expresses so much experience in hunting fields would acknowledge the unimportance of slight differences in velocities between cartridges, but alas, no dice.

You would think someone with a coyote on their profile would know that coyotes don't stand still and wait for your rangefinder or scope clicking, and that 1/2" is the difference between hitting spine, and hitting hair on the coyotes back. flat shooting matters

 

[mcb]

You would think someone with a coyote on their profile would know that coyotes don't stand still and wait for your rangefinder or scope clicking, and that 1/2" is the difference between hitting spine, and hitting hair on the coyotes back. flat shooting matters

But how does 6mm Rem vs 6mm CM make a difference there? They both are very similar velocities/trajectories with the same bullet. Seems like it is going to come down to the quality of the ammunition and/or barrel more than the functional differences between those two cartridges.

 

[xphunter]

Yeah


But how does 6mm Rem vs 6mm CM make a difference there? They both are very similar velocities/trajectories with the same bullet. Seems like it is going to come down to the quality of the ammunition and/or barrel more than the functional differences between those two cartridges.

Actually, IF, the 6mm Remmy had a fast twist barrel it would be able to show off it's larger case capacity with the heavier bullets for the caliber, IF, you are not limited by magazine length...
Different tolerances with chambers and barrels will give varied MV's from rifle to rifle.
Also, the most accurate load may or may not be among the fastest.
Between a 243 Win (17"), two 6 Creed's (15.75" and a 18"), two 6 XC's (both 15"), one 6 Dasher (17"), and one 6mm Long Dasher (15") with similar weight bullets it is surprising what the MV's come to. Barrel lengths from 15"-18"

 

[mcb]

Actually, IF, the 6mm Remmy had a fast twist barrel it would be able to show off it's larger case capacity with the heavier bullets for the caliber, IF, you are not limited by magazine length...
Different tolerances with chambers and barrels will give varied MV's from rifle to rifle.
Also, the most accurate load may or may not be among the fastest.
Between a 243 Win (17"), two 6 Creed's (15.75" and a 18"), two 6 XC's (both 15"), one 6 Dasher (17"), and one 6mm Long Dasher (15") with similar weight bullets it is surprising what the MV's come to. Barrel lengths from 15"-18"

Just based on a quick look at Hodgdon's online database for each cartridge I am not seeing that that slightly greater case volume and slightly higher pressure of 6mm Rem is resulting in noticable greater performance than 6mm CM.

But again the quality of the ammunition and the quality of the barrel is going to have a bigger impact on accuracy than which of these cartridges held the bullet before ignition. Add even if we assume that 6mm Rem is a slightly faster cartridge (not seeing it in the data yet) by the time you are far enough down range to see the velocity advantage the quality of the ammunition, barrel and most importantly the meat-ware behind the trigger is again going to dominate any small advantage 6mm Rem has over 6mm CM. We are not comparing 45-70 to 300 PRC we are comparing two cartridges that are nearly identical. So close that most shooters are not good enough to realize the differences.

 

[mshootnit]

But how does 6mm Rem vs 6mm CM make a difference there? They both are very similar velocities/trajectories with the same bullet. Seems like it is going to come down to the quality of the ammunition and/or barrel more than the functional differences between those two cartridges.

Right. You have your preference, I have mine. And if I relate mine and back it up with widely available standards and published data, in no way am I being untruthful or obscure. Yet I have been accused of such which is the knee jerk reaction of a certain opinionated, creedmoor fan.

 

[mshootnit]

Actually, IF, the 6mm Remmy had a fast twist barrel it would be able to show off it's larger case capacity with the heavier bullets for the caliber, IF, you are not limited by magazine length...
Different tolerances with chambers and barrels will give varied MV's from rifle to rifle.
Also, the most accurate load may or may not be among the fastest.
Between a 243 Win (17"), two 6 Creed's (15.75" and a 18"), two 6 XC's (both 15"), one 6 Dasher (17"), and one 6mm Long Dasher (15") with similar weight bullets it is surprising what the MV's come to. Barrel lengths from 15"-18"

My view: why go over 100-106 gr. in that caliber if the discussion is hunting? If you want heavier slower bullets there are other cartridges for that. The beauty of the 24's is light recoil, flat trajectories and hitting above its weight on game. The effectiveness of the 243 and 6mm has been a thing of joy for hunters for 65 years.

 

[mshootnit]

I guess there's at least one guy I agree with. American Rifleman, April 2019, " A New Look at old 270 Winchester" Craig Boddington.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/4/25/a-new-look-at-the-old-270-winchester/

 

[mcb]

Right. You have your preference, I have mine. And if I relate mine and back it up with widely available standards and published data, in no way am I being untruthful or obscure. Yet I have been accused of such which is the knee jerk reaction of a certain opinionated, creedmoor fan.

I don't have a preference here. My "preference" this year for deer hunting is going to be 450 Bushmaster, but I digress.

What I am struggling with is where is the performance difference between the two cartridges? When I look up reloading data for a particular weight bullet in both cartridges I am not seeing a meaningful velocity difference despite the acknowledge specification differences. Case capacity advantage goes to 6mm Rem with 54.4gr H20 vs 6mm CM 52.5 gr H2O and 6mm Rem has a pressure advantage of 65 ksi vs 62 ksi (both transducer) and yet I am not seeing the performance differences enough to trump quality of the components/firearm and the skill of the shooter.

If it makes any difference despite the personal best group shot with the 6mm CM (shared up thread) I have been hunting groundhogs with a 6mm Remington since I could count my age on my fingers and toes without using my toes. With my longest kill being 365 yards with it. My only beef with 6mm Remington was that brass did not last, as the necks split after just a few reloads. I have not started reloading 6mm CM yet so can't say if the brass life is longer or shorter.

I guess there's at least one guy who thinks like me.
https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2019/4/25/a-new-look-at-the-old-270-winchester/

What does that completely different long action caliber have to do with 243 Win vs 6mm Rem vs 6mm CM???

 

[mshootnit]

I don't have a preference here. My "preference" this year for deer hunting is going to be 450 Bushmaster, but I digress.

What I am struggling with is where is the performance difference between the two cartridges? When I look up reloading data for a particular weight bullet in both cartridges I am not seeing a meaningful velocity difference despite the acknowledge specification differences. Case capacity advantage goes to 6mm Rem with 54.4gr H20 vs 6mm CM 52.5 gr H2O and 6mm Rem has a pressure advantage of 65 ksi vs 62 ksi (both transducer) and yet I am not seeing the performance differences enough to trump quality of the components/firearm and the skill of the shooter.

If it makes any difference despite the personal best group shot with the 6mm CM (shared up thread) I have been hunting groundhogs with a 6mm Remington since I could count my age on my fingers without using my toes with my longest kill being 365 yards with it. My only beef with 6mm Remington was that brass did not last as the necks split after just a few reloads. I have not started reloading 6mm CM yet so can say if the brass life is longer or shorter.


What does that completely different long action caliber have to do with 243 Win vs 6mm Rem vs 6mm CM???

Nosler shows a larger case capacity difference than you are stating, but on the heavier end of bullets 6mm Rem. outperforms 243 Win by 100 fps and often more... a Creed is smaller than 243 so...
BUT I am not here posting trying to assert superiority of 6mm Rem. or 270 vs. 6.5 Creed...merely pointing out the inappropriateness of being construed as aliar for stating that the 270 Win absolutely holds its own against 6.5 Creedmoor for hunting to 425 yds. A distance that covers almost all medium/large game taken in this country.
There is a larger discussion with history here you may not be privy to.

 

[xphunter]

My view: why go over 100-106 gr. in that caliber if the discussion is hunting? If you want heavier slower bullets there are other cartridges for that. The beauty of the 24's is light recoil, flat trajectories and hitting above its weight on game. The effectiveness of the 243 and 6mm has been a thing of joy for hunters for 65 years.

To answer your question:
I shoot, compete, varmint hunt, prairie dog hunt, and big game hunt differently than you do.
This is an assumption, but given your comments, it is an easy one to make.
Many of my specialty pistols are set-up for multi-tasking, as listed above.
The Achilles Heel of shooting distance is not drop, it is wind drift.
Drop is more of a given, than drift. Wind has a vertical feature as well, by itself, then when you add topography, even more so.
For the first time I used a 100 grain bullet in a 6mm to kill a pronghorn doe at 255 yards, because I had some old factory ammo I got with the 6mm BR XP-100, and I wanted to use it for fun on a lope. This is a old school slow twist barrel, so 100 grain (Corelokt) is much as I could use anyway.
Last year with a 15.75" XP in 6 Creed, I shot a lope at around a 1/4 mile. Wind is an issue where I live and hunt.
I usually confirm my drops to 1K on the majority of my specialty pistols, and sometimes out to about 1400-1500 yards.
I intentionally choose barrels and bullets that give me an advantage in both wind primarily and then in drop as well.
After you get out there, a bullet that may be heavier and start out slower, but it actually drops less than your lighter weight/faster bullets will. The light for caliber weight bullets shed velocity quickly, and drift quite a bit more than their heavier brothers and sisters.
Once I have my drops confirmed I typically begin practicing at 400 to 500 yards.
Sometimes I start on 10" steel at 300 just to check that nothing is off though.
"Flat trajectories" is just for a limited distance with lighter bullets.
If you are a short distance shooter/hunter, that is fine and I have no problem with that...to each his own.
Downrange ballistics is a whole different ball game, and I enjoy playing at distance. with 22lr's, revolvers, and specialty pistols. Rifles are kind of boring for me, but I do have them and use them occasionally.
Sorry to the OP for major thread-drift, but the discussion has been good.

 

[horsemen61]

VT,
There are two more Dominators yet to come...22 Creed and a 25 Creed

Xphunter please post about them when you get them done please!

 

[mcb]

There is a larger discussion with history here you may not be privy to.

I guess so, I went back an re-read the thread and did not see the data you were talking about. I am relatively new around here. No worries.

 

[xphunter]

Xphunter please post about them when you get them done please!

Will do

 

[mshootnit]

To answer your question:
I shoot, compete, varmint hunt, prairie dog hunt, and big game hunt differently than you do.
This is an assumption, but given your comments, it is an easy one to make.
Many of my specialty pistols are set-up for multi-tasking, as listed above.
The Achilles Heel of shooting distance is not drop, it is wind drift.
Drop is more of a given, than drift. Wind has a vertical feature as well, by itself, then when you add topography, even more so.
For the first time I used a 100 grain bullet in a 6mm to kill a pronghorn doe at 255 yards, because I had some old factory ammo I got with the 6mm BR XP-100, and I wanted to use it for fun on a lope. This is a old school slow twist barrel, so 100 grain (Corelokt) is much as I could use anyway.
Last year with a 15.75" XP in 6 Creed, I shot a lope at around a 1/4 mile. Wind is an issue where I live and hunt.
I usually confirm my drops to 1K on the majority of my specialty pistols, and sometimes out to about 1400-1500 yards.
I intentionally choose barrels and bullets that give me an advantage in both wind primarily and then in drop as well.
After you get out there, a bullet that may be heavier and start out slower, but it actually drops less than your lighter weight/faster bullets will. The light for caliber weight bullets shed velocity quickly, and drift quite a bit more than their heavier brothers and sisters.
Once I have my drops confirmed I typically begin practicing at 400 to 500 yards.
Sometimes I start on 10" steel at 300 just to check that nothing is off though.
"Flat trajectories" is just for a limited distance with lighter bullets.
If you are a short distance shooter/hunter, that is fine and I have no problem with that...to each his own.
Downrange ballistics is a whole different ball game, and I enjoy playing at distance. with 22lr's, revolvers, and specialty pistols. Rifles are kind of boring for me, but I do have them and use them occasionally.
Sorry to the OP for major thread-drift, but the discussion has been good.

I understand and have stated as much, regarding drop and wind drift. But again you are limited by the energy of the size class of bullet. At what range are you going to hunt where a 108 gr. eldm has a definitive advantage over a 100 gr. Sierra? What is rhe remaining energy at that range? For me the 24's are for hunting out to 350 yds on deer or as far as you can hit on a coyote. We have some open country and big deer. How much advantage are you gaining at 350 yds with a heavier slower bullet? The answer is none.
Paper punching and hunting are two different things. My farthest kill since you aluded to it was a prairie dog at undetermined distance but the load was a 75 gr. BT out of a 26" 25-06 with estimated velocity of 3600 fps muzzle. The holdover was ridiculous I would say 24" conservatively. The rifle was zeroed at 200 yds.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

if all you want to do is shoot varmint weight to 100 grain hunting bullets, then there's nothing against the 243. If you do happen to want to shoot the heavy, vld types the 6mm creedmoor offers you better options out of the gate.
I apologize for jumping in but I'm getting tired of this revolving argument

This is the long and short of it.

 

[xphunter]

Energy doesn't kill....penetration/bullet expansion, Destroying tissue: lungs/heart etc...Does kill.
Like I said before, what in the minimum impact velocity of your hunting bullet?
That's what I work off of.
If you choose another route, fine with me.

If you don't know your actual MV, then everything is guessing, unless you actually confirm your drops at distance.
I don't do holdovers...Not accurate past a certain distance.
I dial or use a reticle in MOA or MIL to be precise
My longest pd kill is over a mile.

100 grain Sierra at 3000 fps
Drop and drift in inches
300 yards 9.7 for drop and 4.3 inches for a 10 mph full value wind
400 yards 23 and 10.7
500 43.1 and 17.4
600 71.2 and 26.1

6 creed with the 108 ELD-M at 3000 fps-Mine is actually 3110 with the 115 DTAC
300 9.2 and 4.5
400 21.5 and 8.2
500 39.9 and 13.2
600 64.9 and 19.5

My actual performance/MV with the 115 6XC
300 8.1 and 3.9
400 19 and 7
500 35.4 and 11.2
600 57.6 and 16.5
These are true drops out to 1600 yards

Wind becomes the issue, as many are not good at it, as you go further.
My 6XC