25-06 blowing primers

[lowmileage]

Hi, I have a 25-06 that I built on a M98 action in 1968. It has a "Flaigs" barrel that were touted to be made by Douglas. Flaigs was a company in Pennsylvania that is now out of business. Flaigs did the barreling to the action. Way back then, I was using H4831 and 87 grain Hornady bullets. It shot very well. I was then using Remington 30-06 cases run thru the 25-06 dies. I used it again in 1999 on an antelope hunt. I loaded 100 grain Nosler Ballistic tips and 120 Speer's with IMR 4831. I used up to 50 grains of IMR 4831 with the Speer 120 grains which shouldn't have been maximum loads and with the exception of some flattened primers, I had no other issues. I started using it again with some Remington 25-06 cases and the 120 grain Speer's starting with 47 grains. This is a starting load per a couple of bullet companies over the internet. The bullet set just missing the lands. The first shot gave me a flattened primer, the 2nd shot a hole in the primer and the 3rd blew the primer out - that got my attention and I stopped. I had higher loads but of course I didn't try them. I double checked the powder weight in the next round of 3 that I was going to fire and they were right on at 47.5 grains. I was thinking of getting a no-go gauge as a 1st step to see if it has excess headspace. I don't know why I'm getting this problem with starting loads when previously it shot ok. The new Remington 25-06 cases are of the same weight as the old resized Remington 30-06 cases. Unfired cases chambered easily and fired cases extracted easily. I'm sorta stumped. Thanks.

 

[Ej3]

Welcome aboard. I recently joined for the same reason as you, seeking advice about blown primers. You will get some great help here. In my searching I found this article helpful: http://www.primalrights.com/articles/understanding-pressure

 

[243winxb]

Remington 25-06 cases and the 120 grain Speer's starting with 47 grains.

IMR 4831?

Seating close to or into the rifling will raise pressure.

Check loaded round neck diameter and fired brass neck diameters. The custom barrel may have a chamber neck on the small side.

The difference in brass can make a difference. Maybe compare case volume with water.

Make sure you using the correct powder. Just some things to check.

IMR 2001 data - Starting load would be 45 grs.

 

[Slamfire]

First thing to do, is cut your loads. You have no idea of what your pressures were or are. You think because you did not have pressure problems last time, that pressures were fine. Well, don't we know better now?

You have said nothing about the lot of powder you were using, but if you changed cans of gunpowder, industry standards for the blended gunpowder pressure curve is +- 10%.

Also, again you have said nothing about the age of your gunpowder. But I am going to tell you something that people do not want to hear. Old gunpowder causes pressure problems. If that can of yours is around 20 years old, I would try a different lot, and of course, cut your loads.

Pressure is not your friend. Yes, we have been told in the popular press that unless the bullet is going 3000 fps, it will bounce off the hide of a deer. And we all want the absolute highest pressure load, because, without the flattest shooting cartridge, we might miss at 1000 yards. As though anyone should be shooting at game at those distances. But to repeat, pressure is not your friend. It will turn around and bite you.

 

[JimKirk]

A Simple solution ...would be to go a slower powder ... IMR 7828, RL 26, Retumbo, H1000 and other "slow" powders will give you velocity with out the over pressure signs .... With 120 gr .bullets ...

I've been shooting the .25/06 since 1969.....

 

[Laphroaig]

Have you ever measured the OAL where a 120 Speer starts touching the lands in your barrel? If I was having your problem that's the first thing I'd do to be sure I'm not jamming the bullet into the rifling.

 

[lowmileage]

Welcome aboard. I recently joined for the same reason as you, seeking advice about blown primers. You will get some great help here. In my searching I found this article helpful: http://www.primalrights.com/articles/understanding-pressure

Good info, I will certainly review, Thanks

 

[lowmileage]

IMR 4831?

Seating close to or into the rifling will raise pressure.

Check loaded round neck diameter and fired brass neck diameters. The custom barrel may have a chamber neck on the small side.

The difference in brass can make a difference. Maybe compare case volume with water.

Make sure you using the correct powder. Just some things to check.

IMR 2001 data - View attachment 234879 Starting load would be 45 grs.

I will check water volume capicity which I didn't do, thanks. Your other points are noted.

 

[lowmileage]

First thing to do, is cut your loads. You have no idea of what your pressures were or are. You think because you did not have pressure problems last time, that pressures were fine. Well, don't we know better now?

You have said nothing about the lot of powder you were using, but if you changed cans of gunpowder, industry standards for the blended gunpowder pressure curve is +- 10%.

Also, again you have said nothing about the age of your gunpowder. But I am going to tell you something that people do not want to hear. Old gunpowder causes pressure problems. If that can of yours is around 20 years old, I would try a different lot, and of course, cut your loads.

Pressure is not your friend. Yes, we have been told in the popular press that unless the bullet is going 3000 fps, it will bounce off the hide of a deer. And we all want the absolute highest pressure load, because, without the flattest shooting cartridge, we might miss at 1000 yards. As though anyone should be shooting at game at those distances. But to repeat, pressure is not your friend. It will turn around and bite you.

The powder is 3 years old. Too bad I didn't have my Chrony set up but I didn't. This should have been a safe starting load. I've never had a situation like this before even when working up a load. I don't think reducing this load even more is the answer, some sort of other problem exists, I think.

 

[lowmileage]

A Simple solution ...would be to go a slower powder ... IMR 7828, RL 26, Retumbo, H1000 and other "slow" powders will give you velocity with out the over pressure signs .... With 120 gr .bullets ...

I've been shooting the .25/06 since 1969.....

I may go to a different powder. Maybe load 2 or 3 rounds with a reduced load and hope for no flattened primers.

 

[someguy2800]

I've loaded and shot about at least 1500 rounds of 25-06 with H4831sc and you should be nowhere near overpressure with that load so something else sounds amiss to me. Check your powder scale with check weights, check to make sure your not jamming the neck of the brass into the throat of the rifle. Check that your neck wall thickness is not excessive. Check the headspace by gluing shims to the bottom of your loaded cases and see if they will chamber. Check the diameter of the bullets your loading.

 

[lowmileage]

Have you ever measured the OAL where a 120 Speer starts touching the lands in your barrel? If I was having your problem that's the first thing I'd do to be sure I'm not jamming the bullet into the rifling.

I was pretty careful in setting up this but am going to double check. It is the same OAL that I was using when I was shooting 50 grains of IMR 4831 and the Speer 120 with the resized 30-06 cases.

 

[lowmileage]

I've loaded and shot about at least 1500 rounds of 25-06 with H4831sc and you should be nowhere near overpressure with that load so something else sounds amiss to me. Check your powder scale with check weights, check to make sure your not jamming the neck of the brass into the throat of the rifle. Check that your neck wall thickness is not excessive. Check the headspace buy gluing shims to the bottom of your loaded cases and see if they will fire. Check the diameter of the bullets your loading.

Yes, I agree I SHOULD be no where near max pressure. My scale is right, I verified weight of an 87 grain bullet. I will do the other checks you mentioned today, thanks.

 

[RecoilRob]

You haven't mentioned the primers being used in the old loads compared to the newest ones. Could there be something there? Seems that it's the only variable that you haven't mentioned and maybe if they're not the same...being magnums now compared to standard before? Or...could they actually be large pistol primers? Subbing in pistol primers would absolutely cause flattening and piercing with otherwise normal pressures for the rifle.

 

[someguy2800]

This means next to nothing as all the variables including rifle are different, but just as a point of reference my pet load in mine is 57 grains of H4831sc with a speer 87gr TNT with WLR primers and this is what mine all look like. I've also loaded this in remington brass with similar results.



I have also loaded 56 grains with 100 grain cup and core, 55.5 with 100 grain barnes (hot but safe), and 51-52 with a few different 117-120's. Of course this is a different gun with different primers and H4831 is not the same as IMR4831. Anyway something besides the powder weight is not right as you are way way way over pressure as you already know.

 

[homatok]

Good advise in post #11. One more thing --- check the length of your cases. A too long case may not have room to expand properly, causing pressure to skyrocket. I would also double check the way I have my dies set.

 

[lowmileage]

You haven't mentioned the primers being used in the old loads compared to the newest ones. Could there be something there? Seems that it's the only variable that you haven't mentioned and maybe if they're not the same...being magnums now compared to standard before? Or...could they actually be large pistol primers? Subbing in pistol primers would absolutely cause flattening and piercing with otherwise normal pressures for the rifle.

Thanks for the reply. The only primers I have in house are Large Rifle. I was using Winchester LR (WLR) in the white box described "for Standard or Magnum Rifle Loads." These were bought around 1990. This latest round were shot with Winchester WLR in a blue box described "for Standard Rifle loads." I bought them about 4 years ago. Wayy back when I was using H4831, I was using CCI LR primers. I have never used Magnum Rifle primers even in my 300 Win Mag.

 

[lowmileage]

Good advise in post #11. One more thing --- check the length of your cases. A too long case may not have room to expand properly, causing pressure to skyrocket. I would also double check the way I have my dies set.

Thanks, all the new brass was FL resized, trimmed to suggested "trimmed to length," and necks annealed. I'm not going to FL resize new cases, just trim to length and neck size.

 

[lowmileage]

This means next to nothing as all the variables including rifle are different, but just as a point of reference my pet load in mine is 57 grains of H4831sc with a speer 87gr TNT with WLR primers and this is what mine all look like. I've also loaded this in remington brass with similar results.



I have also loaded 56 grains with 100 grain cup and core, 55.5 with 100 grain barnes (hot but safe), and 51-52 with a few different 117-120's. Of course this is a different gun with different primers and H4831 is not the same as IMR4831. Anyway something besides the powder weight is not right as you are way way way over pressure as you already know.

Nice. I have just checked my OAL. It was 3.188-3.190", some had a more flattened lead tip. That might have been a bit to close to the lands? I have now changed to a 3.170" OAL. If it doesn't accept a NO GO headspace gauge, I'm going to load 3 rounds with new neck sized only brass, 45 grains IMR 4831 and the 120 Speer, cases trimmed to length. I'll set up my Chrony and monitor each shot. This won't be until next week. Thanks.

 

[243winxb]

Loaded rounds neck diameter should be .290" or less, to fit a factory chamber.

Brass trimmed to 2.484" Maximum is 2.494"

Good Luck.

 

[lowmileage]

Loaded rounds neck diameter should be .290" or less, to fit a factory chamber.

Brass trimmed to 2.484" Maximum is 2.494"

Good Luck.

Thanks, I trim cases to that length and my necks are under .290" ( I think .284" IIRC).

 

[sage5907]

I understand your problem completely because I have been there. 50 grains is to much powder for the 120 grain Speer HotCore with the current IMR 4831 being sold by Hodgdons. A load that I have used that works well is 48 grains of IMR 4831 with an overall length of 3.130. That will get you a velocity of about 2850 fps. Other loads that will work and get higher velocity are 51 grains of Reloader 22, 55 grains of Reloader 25. or 47.5 grains of Reloader 17. I like the Reloader 22 load far better than IMR 4831, although I used IMR 4831 for many years. These powders will get you higher velocity without bumping on the high pressures. One thing about IMR 4831 is that when it hits the max load high pressures are quick to show up so to be safe you should stay about 2 grains below max. An overall length of 3.130 should help reduce the pressure. Your new cases should have low neck tension, but If you keep getting pressure signs you may want to anneal the case necks to reduce the tension on the bullet. I recently bought some new Winchester cases that had stiff neck tension. Blowing primers is bad because you could get some brass in your eyes so back off to 47 grains and enjoy your shooting. That Flag's barrel made by Douglas is an excellent barrel and I remember when Flag's was installing them back in the 1950's. You could also lower pressure by giving the barrel a good cleaning with J B Bore compound and Kroil. Good luck with your reloading and let us know how you solved the problem.

 

[lowmileage]

I went to order a no go and a field headspace gauge but my normal sources are out - yeah, crazy. So in the meantime I performed a totally unscientific test. I took a new unsized brass case and added blue painters tape layer by layer onto the rim until the bolt wouldn't close. I think I'm in trouble. It took .025" in layers until the bolt wouldn't close, it was 5 or 6 layers. I don't think this is a good sign.

 

[JimKirk]

Do you have a fired un-sized case? Have you measured from the shoulder to the base ?

I have a .25/06 that has a chamber that is too deep ... but by leaving the sizing long ... I've able to shoot the gun and it is accurate...

 

[sage5907]

I agree with what JimKirk posted. If you think the chamber is long you can set the full length sizing die so it only neck sizes. I have done this in the past with a RCBS full length sizing die by having a space between the shell holder and the bottom of the sizing die at the top of the stroke. It's easy to set the gap by using a set of feeler gauges. In your case use a .020 gauge to set the gap. I would think that the headspace for your rifle should be somewhere between .005 and .007. One other point, I'm not sure that the headspace is your only problem because excessive headspace with a normal load will usually just cause the primer to back out when it is fired, not a pierced primer. You may just need to do the neck sizing with fired brass, make sure your powder charge is measuring correct, and give the barrel a good cleaning. It may not be important in your case but I use an RCBS precision case micrometer to find the length of my chamber and you can buy one on eBay for something over $50. With this micrometer it's easy to tell the length of your chamber as compared to a full length sized case. The micrometer made for a 30-06 will also work for a 270 and 30-06. This is better than trying to use a go-gauge or a no-go gauge but in reality you can solve the problem just by neck sizing.