Or full length sizing fired (in your chamber) brass without moving the shoulder. You can even use the FL sizer to move the shoulder forward a bit if needed.
25-06 blowing primers
- Thread starter lowmileage
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Or full length sizing fired (in your chamber) brass without moving the shoulder. You can even use the FL sizer to move the shoulder forward a bit if needed.
Dog Soldier
member
As I recall Remington adopted the 1920s wildcat .25-06 in 1968? The chambers in the early rifles differed from the modern loading and Remington brass. The early rifles often required forming dies to match the chambers. I would cast a Cerro-Safe core and check the dimensions. 
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OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
Thanks, my gun was built JUST BEFORE Remington made it a factory offering.As I recall Remington adopted the 1920s wildcat .25-06 in 1968? The chambers in the early rifles differed from the modern loading and Remington brass. The early rifles often required forming dies to match the chambers. I would cast a Ferro-Safe core and check the dimensions.
OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
I'm wondering, I fired 3 shots and each got progressively worst: flattened primer, pierced primer, blown primer. Coinsidence or could something being getting worse with each shot.
someguy2800
Member
I also have the RCBS precision micrometer in 25-06 and also use it for 270 and 30-06. In your case since your rifle need special attention on head space I would get the rcbs precision mic set and I would use the old cases you have instead of the new 25-06 brass.
Head space isn't causing blown primers. It can cause premature case head separation, but not over pressure.
Bullets seated into the lands can raise pressure. Too much powder can cause over pressure.
A pinched neck from being too fat there or a case that's too long reaching into the lands/throat can cause over pressure.
Bullets seated into the lands can raise pressure. Too much powder can cause over pressure.
A pinched neck from being too fat there or a case that's too long reaching into the lands/throat can cause over pressure.
That's just weird if they are all the same.
This would definitely give you something to go by as far as checking the neck area of a loaded round to be sure they are no too big. Did you change cases from when everything was OK and these failures?
Dog Soldier
member
When reducing the neck to a smaller caliber neck thickness can be a problem. In most cases going from .30 caliber to a .25 caliber requires neck ID reaming. The increased tension on the OD allows a pressure rise above the normal release point.
Always check the neck wall thickness as the brass does not flow even into the neck. This can cause fluctuating pressure rise. It is also worth checking the case for incipient separation above the cartridge head.
If you are not familiar with case head separation check this out. Walkalong posted an excellent article on this often hidden problem.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/incipient-case-head-separation.734058/
Always check the neck wall thickness as the brass does not flow even into the neck. This can cause fluctuating pressure rise. It is also worth checking the case for incipient separation above the cartridge head.
If you are not familiar with case head separation check this out. Walkalong posted an excellent article on this often hidden problem.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/incipient-case-head-separation.734058/
RecoilRob
Member
Excessive headspace CAN make primers look like they're super hot as they back out upon ignition then when the case slides back against the bolt face they get smashed beyond what is normal...giving the appearance of excessive pressure. The three cases progressing from flat to pierced to blown could be from the friction increasing inside the chamber walls making the cases stick a little more with each firing?
Any way you look at it, the load you were using was not excessive in the rifle before...and the only component changed was the new case, which you've now shown to be short causing an excessive headspace condition. Might be good to fire-form the remaining new cases with a mild charge and bullet seated long into the lands to hold it back against the bolt. This should blow the shoulder forward and make the brass the same as your old stuff. Or set the barrel back and rechamber to new specs. This has been an interesting thread...thanks for sharing.
Any way you look at it, the load you were using was not excessive in the rifle before...and the only component changed was the new case, which you've now shown to be short causing an excessive headspace condition. Might be good to fire-form the remaining new cases with a mild charge and bullet seated long into the lands to hold it back against the bolt. This should blow the shoulder forward and make the brass the same as your old stuff. Or set the barrel back and rechamber to new specs. This has been an interesting thread...thanks for sharing.
Headspace problems don't cause pierced or blown primers. It does cause case stretching and/or case head separations.
I am hoping the OP can give us more info on the cases before and now. Neck thickness maybe? Length maybe? Weight maybe?
Definitely need to look at this variable.
I missed where he has shows the case shoulder to be "short", which would cause excess head clearance and potential case head separations.
I am hoping the OP can give us more info on the cases before and now. Neck thickness maybe? Length maybe? Weight maybe?
RecoilRob
Member
Post #23 is where he checked (unscientifically...but enough to indicate a problem IMHO) headspace and it's a bit on the excessive side. The fired cases with the flat/pierced/blown primers might indeed be stretched at the case head and due to separate in short order. We haven't heard from the OP about this aspect of it.
OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
Replies noted, many thanks, all appreciated, taking measurements and will reply tomorrow.
Ah, yes, the painters tape test. Not sure I put much stock in that, and I certainly didn't when I first read it. It can compress and expand. A bolt gun can compress brass in a chamber, much less tape. It could have very well pushed the shoulder back because of the tape. Who knows, they have a lot of leverage though.
From your OP you said your OAL was set "just missing the lands". That was in 1999, and maybe the dies were reset and you forgot? Also, are these the same lot of bullets from 1999?
Dog Soldier
member
I have never heard of using tape to gauge head space. I have used double edged razor blades cut to fit the cartridge head. These blades in SS alloy can stand a PSI of 29,000 # .
Well I would check case neck expansion, to see if the bullet drops in a fired case without any resistance.
But as I said earlier, I would cut the loads. I find it amazing that the general consensus is that your overpressure conditions can't be caused by too much powder in the case. One should go back to first principles and understand what is causing pressure in the first place: it is the charge of gunpowder. The primer ignites the gunpowder and the gunpowder burns, creates pressure, and pushes the bullet down the barrel. The absolute first thing that should be done when having over pressure conditions is to cut the powder charge down, until the pressure problems go away. This is very simple.
Also something, whatever pressures are in a manual, pressures that technicians saw in the lab are pressures they saw on their equipment, not yours. Your equipment is totally different. As such, pressures will be totally different. In fact, you don't know what pressures are going on inside your barrel. Everyone is making assumptions. All these people looking at a manual, or a computer program, and making inferences about the data contained, none of that proves a thing about the pressures inside your barrel. Unless you figure out how to measure pressure in your barrel, you don't know the pressure. Shooters look at secondary signs of pressure: case sticking, blown primers, etc, but, these failures don't come with a pressure gauge. I am going to say that most shooters are shooting over maximum loads, because darn near everyone starts at the max load and goes up. But, because they are not experiencing evidence of gross pressures, reloaders assume that everything is OK. Well, pressure is not your friend. Things go wrong quicker the higher the pressure.
But as I said earlier, I would cut the loads. I find it amazing that the general consensus is that your overpressure conditions can't be caused by too much powder in the case. One should go back to first principles and understand what is causing pressure in the first place: it is the charge of gunpowder. The primer ignites the gunpowder and the gunpowder burns, creates pressure, and pushes the bullet down the barrel. The absolute first thing that should be done when having over pressure conditions is to cut the powder charge down, until the pressure problems go away. This is very simple.
Also something, whatever pressures are in a manual, pressures that technicians saw in the lab are pressures they saw on their equipment, not yours. Your equipment is totally different. As such, pressures will be totally different. In fact, you don't know what pressures are going on inside your barrel. Everyone is making assumptions. All these people looking at a manual, or a computer program, and making inferences about the data contained, none of that proves a thing about the pressures inside your barrel. Unless you figure out how to measure pressure in your barrel, you don't know the pressure. Shooters look at secondary signs of pressure: case sticking, blown primers, etc, but, these failures don't come with a pressure gauge. I am going to say that most shooters are shooting over maximum loads, because darn near everyone starts at the max load and goes up. But, because they are not experiencing evidence of gross pressures, reloaders assume that everything is OK. Well, pressure is not your friend. Things go wrong quicker the higher the pressure.
OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
Ok, again many thanks to all who have posted and I know I owe replies. Here is a summary of my results (seems to quite a bit of case lengthening after just one firing, from 2.484" to 2.502" - 2.506 :
First off, I cannot find any of my of the 120 grain loadings that I made for my antelope hunt in 1999 so I cannot measure dimensions of those fired cases. Here were my loadings back then and there were no problems (other than probably flattened primers) that I recall.
To summarize, last week I had one blown and one pierced primer with 47/IMR 4831 and the 120 grain Speer. This should have been a fairly conservative starting load. The seating depth was the same as in my 1999 loading when I loaded up to 50 grains without any problems but in all honesty may have been too close to the lands. The only difference was now I was using 25-06 Remington brass and in 1999 I was using resized Remington 30-06 brass. I verified water capacity is the same in both cases. I also checked with a hook at the end of a paper clip and found out that a ridge was forming on the inside of each case after only 1 firing. Not good. For whatever reason, the case with the blown primer had a ridge closer to the rim than the other 2 firings.
I did find some 1987 loadings, both fired and unfired, of the 87 grain Speer. I have marked on the box that it was IMR4831 and I'm usually pretty careful but it says 57.5 grains and that looks pretty stiff so it maybe was H4831. Two cases that were fired 8x had seperations. I didn't recall that. Might be normal case fatigue after 8 firings. 57 1/2 grains of H4831 and the 87 grain Hornady was my "woodchuck" load for many years starting when I made the gun in 1968 into the 1970's and I don't recall any problems. I found some of those fired cases and they didn't have any flatten primers.
I'm not firing this rifle to I at least verify it won't accept a NOGO gauge and even with that I should Ferro Safe the chamber.
:
First off, I cannot find any of my of the 120 grain loadings that I made for my antelope hunt in 1999 so I cannot measure dimensions of those fired cases. Here were my loadings back then and there were no problems (other than probably flattened primers) that I recall.
To summarize, last week I had one blown and one pierced primer with 47/IMR 4831 and the 120 grain Speer. This should have been a fairly conservative starting load. The seating depth was the same as in my 1999 loading when I loaded up to 50 grains without any problems but in all honesty may have been too close to the lands. The only difference was now I was using 25-06 Remington brass and in 1999 I was using resized Remington 30-06 brass. I verified water capacity is the same in both cases. I also checked with a hook at the end of a paper clip and found out that a ridge was forming on the inside of each case after only 1 firing. Not good. For whatever reason, the case with the blown primer had a ridge closer to the rim than the other 2 firings.
I did find some 1987 loadings, both fired and unfired, of the 87 grain Speer. I have marked on the box that it was IMR4831 and I'm usually pretty careful but it says 57.5 grains and that looks pretty stiff so it maybe was H4831. Two cases that were fired 8x had seperations. I didn't recall that. Might be normal case fatigue after 8 firings. 57 1/2 grains of H4831 and the 87 grain Hornady was my "woodchuck" load for many years starting when I made the gun in 1968 into the 1970's and I don't recall any problems. I found some of those fired cases and they didn't have any flatten primers.
I'm not firing this rifle to I at least verify it won't accept a NOGO gauge and even with that I should Ferro Safe the chamber.
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OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
As I recall Remington adopted the 1920s wildcat .25-06 in 1968? The chambers in the early rifles differed from the modern loading and Remington brass. The early rifles often required forming dies to match the chambers. I would cast a Cerro-Safe core and check the dimensions.
Agree, I'm curious to my chamber dimensions.
OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
My old (fired) 30/06 resized cases have seen too many firings for me to feel safe using them now. Thanks.
OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
I now have the seating die set so that there is an additional .020" gap. While my bullets were not touching the lands, they may have been too close. I have (for almost 50 years) been seating bullets when they show no rifling marks when chambered and haven't had any adverse results. I have a feeling this chamber is going to swallow a NOGO gauge. Thanks.
OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
Yes, these were new, that I bought 15 years ago, 25-06 Remington cases. I ran them thru a Full length die which I wouldn't do in the future. I maybe should have just neck sized them and trimmed to length. I was using resized Remington 30/06 cases, first full lengthed, then neck sized.
OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
Cases were of the same weight and same water capacity. Only difference was that the old cases were resized Rem 30/06 and the new were Rem 25/06.
OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
Bullets were from the same Speer box. I verified seating depth with the new 25/06 cases and OAL was the same (or extremely close) to the old firing depth.
OP
OP
lowmileage
Member
I should have the NOGO gauge and the Ferro Safe next week. That should tell us what is going on here. Thanks
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