30-30 - do I need small base dies?

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goon

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Hi,
I just tried resizing some 30-30 brass tonight for my "new" Marlin 336 and I've found that I can't get them sized quite right.
They will chamber the whole way but as I get to the last bazillionth of an inch I can feel a little tightness.
It's hard to describe but it just isn't as smooth as a factory round chambering and it kind of feels like when I close the lever I'm wedging the casing in.
So what I'm wondering is, what die do they use to size the brass at the factory?
And should I invest in a set of small base dies?
 
You full length sized and trimmed your brass? Dies adjusted correctly?

I use inexpensive Lee dies for my daughter's 336..... no troubles.
 
Actually, the FL die is adjusted as tight as I can get it and still be able to run the ram fully up.
When the shellholder contacts the bottom of the die the ram has to cam over for me to pull the handle down the whole way. If it were possible, I'd say it's adjusted too far down.
I also trimmed the brass because I figured if I didn't I'd have trouble crimping (since the 30-30 is going into a tube magazine it will probably really need a good crimp).
Some of it is a little shorter than the trim-to length shown in my manuals but only because it came that way from Federal.
 
HMMMMM!

It's possible you have an overly thick shellholder, You could try sanding off a couple three thousandths and see if that helps before you buy an expensive set of SB dies. Worst case you ruin a $4 shellholder.
 
Wierd...I have my Lee resizing/decapping die set .030" off the shell holder and I have no problem chambering. Are you sure you don't need to set the shoulder back a bit? Measure the chamber mouth and the case just at the head and see what you come up with...

Also make sure you are trimming the cases AFTER you resize them. If you don't, you may be forcing the case mouth into the rifling...
 
Actually, the FL die is adjusted as tight as I can get it and still be able to run the ram fully up.
When the shellholder contacts the bottom of the die the ram has to cam over for me to pull the handle down the whole way. If it were possible, I'd say it's adjusted too far down.
Click to expand...

I would recommend buying a cartridge headspace gage, and comparing the headspace of a fired case to a sized case. And then set up your dies accordingly.

However, the 30-30 is a rimmed cartridge, and I do not know if the distance from shoulder to base is controlled in those things.

I suspect you are not sizing your cases enough. But before you start grinding material from the bottom of your die, (which is what I would do) you need gages to verify what you are doing.
 
goon i cant really ad to what others have mentioned. Some good advice here. Please let us know the outcome. for sure though. mic out the shell holder may want to file it down a bit. recheck you set up then trim your cases afterwards. Only question i have are you trying to chamber a unloaded round case only or with a bullet in it.
 
I tried both loaded rounds and empty casings with the same result.
I also trimmed the casings after they were sized.
Also, I think I have another shellholder so I'll try that.

BTW- does anyone even make a small base 30-30 die? I've looked around and can't find anything online.
 
To the best of my knowledge, none of the major manufacturers make a small base die in .30-30.

I'm thinking the problem is with the sizing die, though I've run into ammunition where the case head was actually thicker than SAAMI spec, but that was in Bertram brass, which is pretty poor quality, in my opinion.

You won't be able to either file or sand the shellholder, as they're hardened steel. At least all mine are. I've ground them down in a milling machine, and even used a rotary grinding wheel in a drill press and a drill press vise to move it like a milling table. Don't grind the bottom of the sizing die, as you can never put the material back if that isn't where the problem is.

You need to blacken a tight case and chamber it. The blackening that is rubbed off will tell you where the problem is. You can do this with a Marks-A-Lot, or a Sharpie.

Once you locate the problem area, then you can work on solutions. My bet is it's a simple solution, but you need to narrow it down to the actual problem before you take any drastic measures.

The .30-30 is an easy round to load, once you get past crumpling the thin cases.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
+1 to what Reloader Fred said.

Smoke a sized case and find out what is getting tight where.

Until you do that, we are all just guessing at what the problem might be.

But whatever it is, you should never need a small base die.

rcmodel
 
Cut a case off about 1/2 inch long and see if the stub will chamber.

If it does you need to look into measuring the shoulder on a fired case and a sized case and see if it is being moved.

If you cannot close the action on the stub look into head space and make sure the chamber is clean.
It does not take much to prevent hold the rim out and prevent the action from closing.
 
I just checked it out with a sharpie and a case that won't chamber.
A couple things:
- resized casings slide in and out of the chamber very smoothly. They don't seem to stick at all when extracted.
- the marked casing showed some shiny spots around the shoulder
- In comparing resized casings to both an unfired factory round and to an empty that was fired in my Marlin, I can see that the shoulder on the resized casing is farther forward.
- I also tried another shellholder. It doesn't seem to fix the problem entirely but it almost makes it go away. If I run a casing in and out of the dies repeatedly with this shellholder they will often eventually chamber but there is a little bit of difficulty in closing the lever that last 1/8". Resizing only once with this shellholder doesn't show any improvement.

I think that the resizing die may not be doing its job in pushing the shoulder back far enough.
This also might make sense - these dies were bought used at a gun show a few years back for $10. Stands to reason that maybe they had something wrong with them.

BTW - I've already tried trimming these cases. Right now they have all been trimmed to at least 2.0295. Some of them were already shorter than that so I didn't bother trimming them.
 
I have seen factory 30-30 loads that had the shoulder as much as 1/8" back from where it fire-formed in the actual chamber of a 94 Winchester.

It always seemed to me that the WCF calibers just never had a real "standard" everyone followed.
Even the die makers.

I have had to cut off the sizing dies for my 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 WCF's in order to get re-sized brass that will chamber in both old Colts & old Winchesters interchangeably.

rcmodel
 
It sounds like you've narrowed the problem down to the shoulder. In order to set the shoulder back a couple of thousandths, which is all it sounds like you need, take the shell holder that's the thinnest between the bottom of the portion the shell rests on when sizing, to the top portion of the holder, where it contacts the die. You can very carefully grind off a small amount from the top of the shellholder and then snug down the die to the new surface. That should take care of your problem.

Working on the shell holder is easier and cheaper than trying to grind down the sizing die, which is also hardened steel.

You shouldn't have to take off much.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
Are you putting some lube on the inside of the case neck when sizing?
The expander plug on the stem can drag the shoulder forward if it is a steel expander ball and no lubrication is present as it expands the neck back to the desired size..
 
I haven't been lubing the inside of the case necks but I'll try that and I'll also try just removing the decapping stem altogether and see what that gets me.

UPDATE -
Just tried lubing the case mouth and without the decapping stem in at all with the same results. The casings still won't chamber.
In looking at the casings it looks like the shoulder isn't getting set back at all. There are sizing marks on the neck down to the shoulder and the shoulder looks like it's getting a little rounded off right where it meets the body of the case, but the angle itself isn't being touched by these dies.
One wild theory I have is that maybe they were reworked to size something else. IIRC, there was a .30 Ackley Improved round that is based on the 30-30.

FWIW, the dies are RCBS dies (marked 30-30 FL 86) that my brother got at a gunshow a couple years back and the first shellholder I tried was his RCBS number 2. The other shellholder I have is a Lyman number 6 and it seems to be a little thinner than the RCBS holder. Since the only thing I own out of this stuff is the Lyman shellholder so I'm not planning to do any grinding on any of it. I just wanted to try some reloads with his dies until I could pick up a set of my own.
Looks like that will be sooner rather than later.
And the brass is a collection of assorted stuff we've gotten over the years. Some is from 30-30's I've owned, some was fired through his Winchester (the dies resize the casings enough to fit his rifle), and some was once fired stuff that was given to us. For my experiements I've been using about 40 once fired Federal casings.

Since I'm looking to get a set of my own dies anyhow, I figure it isn't a big deal to just go get set this week.
So what dies do you recommend?
I've used Lyman and RCBS both before and own both but I've had the least trouble with the Lymans. Is there any way to know which will have a better chance of sizing my brass correctly before I spend money on them?
 
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I have used the same set of RCBS 30-30 dies for about 35 years with nary a problem in Winchesters & one or two Marlin 336's.

Your mileage, apparently, may vary!

rcmodel
 
Yep.
I had problems with my .303 dies and with 7.62x54R.
On both the threads on the decapping stem for the expander were stripped out. I've also had problems with their carbide .357 sizing die. With mine adjusted the way they're supposed to be they don't size right. They leave an unsized bulge at the bottom of the casing. I had to adjust them so that the shellholder contacts them and makes the ram cam over. I've heard that this can break carbide dies because they're supposedly sensitive to impact, but no problems so far.
Guess that could be as much my fault as theirs though because I've mostly only used steel dies.

One thing for them though - they do stand behind their stuff. I imagine if I buy a set that doesn't size right they'd fix them for me.
Gotta get into town tomorrow and see a man about some dies.
 
Sounds like your dies may be slightly out of spec... do you have a buddy that might have a die set you can try? My RCBS dies size brass just fine to fit in my 336... and they are pretty old dies (a friend gave them to me)... I'd try calling RCBS.. .they will probably fix them (replace them probably) for next to nothing or free.
 
My brother is the buddy who had a set I could try.
I'm planning to get a set of my own dies this week and that should solve the problem.

He's also planning to contact RCBS.
 
Another theory------

Are you crimping the bullets?

If so, you're probably crimping too much, and buckling the shoulder causing it to buldge out anc cause tight chambering.

Reduce the crimping to just enough to turn the case mouth into the cannelure. Little if any is actually needed to prevent the bullets from being pushed back into the case neck.

I too have some circa 1970's RCBS .30/30 dies and with some rifles they are marginal on sufficient sizing, especially if the brass has been fired in a rifle with a "large" chamber and then attempted to be fired in a rifle with a tight chamber.
 
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