30-30 - do I need small base dies?

[goon]

GooseGestapo -
The brass I'm using has been fired in an assortment of rifles. It's come from probably almost a dozen different sources, one of which is my brother's old "Ted Williams" Winchester 94. His gun has a loose chamber. What you describe with loose chambers sounds like it's what's going on here.
As far as the crimp goes, I've thought of that too (because I've screwed it up MANY times before) but it's already been ruled out.
For one, the sharpie marker test on an empty casing shows contact at the shoulder. Second, it happens with both loaded rounds and empty, resized casings. Last, if I compare a casing fired in my gun, a resized casing from these dies, and a brand new factory loaded round, I can see that these dies just are not sizing the shoulder at all. Its like RCBS forgot about the shoulder angle altogether. The dies size below the shoulder and they size the neck but they don't touch the shoulder.
To farther complicate things, I tried a BRAND NEW set of RCBS dies today and got the exact same result. I promptly returned them for a refund.

After a lot of swearing, I put the RCBS shellholder my brother has and his dies back in my press and tightened the dies tight. They are so tight now that the shellholder hits the bottom and the handle cams over hard. It takes both hands to snap the handle down and both hands to snap it back up from its bottom position but it does seem like I might get some sized enough to try some reloads this way. I know it isn't right but it might be workable until I can solve the problem.

My last question to you guys is this:
Since RCBS has failed me twice on this, what dies should I go with?
I basically need dies that are going to return my fired brass to original factory dimensions (factory ammo runs fine in my rifle).

 

[DEDON45]

Hmmm... a brand new set gave you the same results? Got me... unless you are very unlucky...

 

[goon]

I don't know - guess it's just a gift.

As best I can figure, the RCBS dies just must not be up to the challenge of getting my brass back to original specs. It really wouldn't even need to be that far because there is some movement of the shoulder in my fired brass.
I may have to go the route of having a set of them cut down to the right height but I'd rather just find dies that work right from the factory.

Still have Lee, Lyman, and Hornady to try.
Any suggestions?

 

[The Bushmaster]

Lee...I have been loading my Winchester 94 using Lee die set for the last 23 years without problems.

 

[rcmodel]

From RCBS:

Q. I've reloaded for over 20 years, and I have a problem I've never experienced before. After cases are sized, they won't chamber in my rifle. I took my rifle to my gunsmith and he says the chamber is dimensionally correct. Factory ammunition works just fine. There must be something wrong with the dies!

A. There are several places where things can go wrong:

2. When setting up the full length sizer die, screw the die down until it touches the shell holder at the top of the press stroke. Then lower the shell holder and screw the die down about 1/8 to 1/4 turn. You will feel a slight thump as the leverage system cams over center. Size the case and again check it in the chamber. Size a couple more cases and check in the chamber. If these cases chamber, go ahead and size and load the rest of the cases.

3. If the cases don't chamber, please return the sizer die along with the five fired cases. The fired cases will give us your chamber dimensions and if the chamber is in standard factory tolerance, we'll make the necessary adjustment in the die for you without cost. If, upon our inspection the chamber is out of standard specification, we will notify you of the cost of producing a die to those specifications.

Call RCBS Customer Service at
1-800-533-5000

rcmodel

 

[DEDON45]

Well, if you want to try another brand, I really like Hornady dies... I use them exclusively for pistol dies... and use RCBS for all my rifles... Redding is also a good mfg.

 

[goon]

I was thinking about Hornady but I gave RCBS a call today.
They told me that it's not uncommon for them to have to take dies in and readjust them to work with specific guns. The customer service lady I spoke with said they will adjust the dies to set the shoulder back a little farther for free if I have a problem.
So...
I know RCBS will stand behind their stuff because they have made good on issues before.
And I know that they know how to make this work.
So I'm thinking about just getting another set of their dies and sending them in when they don't work (because they probably won't).

 

[rcmodel]

It is my personal feeling that RCBS makes thier 30-30 dies to provide maximum case life. SO, they won't fit all chambers.

As I noted in post #16, there has been a very wide range of chamber dimensions used over the years in all the WCF calibers.

If they made a standard 30-30 die that gurenteed fit any .30 WCF/.30-30 made over the past 104 years, a lot of cases would be getting the shoulder set back excessivly, resulting in reduced case life.

I think you are wise to send them your die, shell holder, and 5 fired cases, so they can make your die "Just Right" for your rifle!

rcmodel

 

[goon]

Yep, I called them and that's what the CS rep I spoke to said.

So, I decided that...
- RCBS says that this is a fairly common thing for them to have to do - no sweat - "just send us your dies and five fired casings and we can make it work".
- Since I knew that RCBS can and will fix it for free if I had a problem, I decided to get another set of their dies and try them. Nothing to lose other than the cost of shipping them the dies.

So I bought another set of RCBS FL dies today.
I ran to the basement as soon as I got home to try out my new dies. I grabbed a handful of casings that I knew wouldn't quite chamber in my rifle, adjusted the dies to FL size them, lubed the casings up, and sized them.
When I tried them in the rifle they chambered!
I was in disbelief so I sized some more and tried them.
They also chambered!

Yee-haw!
Looks like I'm in business.

 

[ranger335v]

All makers machine their dies and shell holders to meet SAMMI specs, which have minimum and maximum range. You aren't likely to find an automatic improvement with a brand change of either.

All dies for the .30-30 would qualify as Small Base so you won't find any so listed.

Either the bullets too far out or excessive crimping and bulging the case is likely to be the core of your problem. Wonder if you have tried seating your bullets another 20-30 thousanths deeper?

 

[goon]

Ranger - I wouldn't have put that past me.
I've screwed the crimp up a number of times on just about every kind of round I've ever loaded. For some reason, I still often screw it up on .300 Savage. It was one of the first things I suspected and checked with these loads.

But my problem WAS with the shoulder on the cases, not with the crimp.
It happened with empty, resized casings that were sized in two different sets of RCBS dies.
I could see the difference between the shoulder on resized cases and factory rounds. Everyone I showed could also see it. It was obvious enough that my local dealer compared my resized brass to ammo from a random box of Federal 30-30 ammo and said "Yep, looks like your dies are screwed up."
Even RCBS admitted that their dies were probably at fault and said they could adjust them to push the shoulder back a little more (or in my case, push the shoulder back at all).
They also told me that if my chamber was out of spec they'd give me a quote on custom dies. But according to the lady I spoke with, needing custom dies is very uncommon.
She also told me that the reason the brass probably wasn't being sized as far as factory brass was because factory ammunition is sized toward the lower end of the specifications to work in just about any gun (along the lines of rcmodel's suggestion).
Last, she told me to stop using my brother's dies the way I had them adjusted.
They were so tight that I had to cam them over and back with both hands, but they were sizing most of the brass far enough to chamber. But she told me that having them adjusted that tight was putting too much stress on the ram and the press so I should stop using them that way before I broke something.

It's a moot point now though:
The manager at my FFL has proven yet again that their customer service is great, RCBS was willing to own up to the problem and fix it, and I got a new set of reloading dies that seem like they're going to work fine with my rifle.
At this point, I've been treated well by everyone involved, including you guys on this forum.
I got no complaints.

 

[pistolero6869]

Glad to see your up and running!

 

[DEDON45]

Another happy ending!