30-30 or 44 mag

[336A]

I'm on the iPhone right now so I don't have access to EXACT numbers but from a carbine middle of the road 240g loads will do 1850 FPS + and in the process generate 1800+ ft lbs

That is what 440 Corbon puts out in the 240 grain I shoot in my Desert Eagle 10' barrel...Not sure the 44Mag has that kind of power
SAAMI specs

Harley was replying to your post where you sated that middle of the road .44 mag performance is 1850fps +. Harley said that that type of performance is what he gets from a 440 Corbon from a 10" barrel and was not sure the .44 mag could that safley that is where the comparison ended.

The only way a .44 mag will get 1850fps with a 240gr bullet is from buying boutique ammo such as BB. Or you handload full house loads with with H110 or similair powders. I've been loading the .44 mag for my carbine since 2005, and can tell you that anything over 1850fps with the over the counter powders available today would be an unsafe load. A max load of H110 with a 240gr bullet may get you close to 1850fps but I doubt it will put you over that safely.

 

[336A]

Re read the post from Harley he said 10" barrel in his post.

 

[R.W.Dale]

then can we agree then that the energy difference between 30-30 and 44mag from a carbine is pretty small and for the most part meaningless.

Because remember you gotta knock back 30-30 published velocities to reflect a 20bbl. And don't try to act like a 24" 30-30 is anything but a rarity. Because in my past 10 years in the hobby hitting every gunshop and show within 200 miles I've NEVER seen one

 

[Harley Quinn]

Well, the 440 Corbon is a round that was built around the DE as I recall...
True it is an exotic one

The .50 AE was introduced in the Desert Eagle from Magnum Research 1991, and shortly thereafter shooters began wondering whether there was an alternative to the heavy recoil of the .50 round but still with substantial stopping power, like the .44 Magnum.

In designing the .440, Cor-bon created a lighter recoiling round with as much or greater penetrating power than the .44 Magnum. The round has a flatter trajectory, and leaves the barrel faster than either the .50 AE or the .44 Mag. However, the cartridge has never taken off, and has remained fairly expensive.

I prefer it to the 50 AE (I have both)... Second and third shots are faster...
http://zvis.com/dep/articles/aevscorb.shtml

Most of the 44 Mag ammo off the shelf is half the power of a 440 Corbon...It is primarily built for Revolvers...Does not even shoot well in the DE...

I buy the 44 Mag +P (place in Eldorado CA) or load them hot!!! If I want to be able to shoot my XIX, as more than a single shot

+ P is what BB loads up... Guess again if you want to shoot it very much in a Revolver
Not very user friendly, but in DE 44 Mag+P a very shootable situation

Back in the 80s use to load up 44 Mags 240 grain bullet with 24 grains of 2400Shot the screws loose and really a very dangerous situation in Revolvers...Not in DE though

Been told about the pressures several times, not a recommended situation on THR

 

[MachIVshooter]

Which Buffalo Bore .44's have more energy than a .30-30? Most .30-30's are well over 1800 ft-lb, many are over 2000. Most powerful Buffalo Bore .44's I can find are here, at 1650 ft-lb.

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=9

That's from a 7.5" HANDGUN. Even if we only give 20 FPS per inch, that's a 250 FPS increase for 2,254 ft/lbs. out of a 20" rifle.

Normal off-the-shelf .44 ammo will hit in the 1,500-1,800 ft/lbs range from a 20" gun Normal .30-30 off-the-shelf .30-30 ammo will be 1,700-1,900 from the same tube length. Handloading and botique ammo will bring both over 2,000 FPE.

 

[45_auto]

It appears that we have a discrepancy on the definition of eclipse.

Apparently you believe that 1,500-1,800 ft-lbs eclipses 1,700-1,900 ft/lbs.

The most common definition of "eclipse" as used in your post #12 means "surpass". The energy figures you quote in post #54 don't appear to support that assertion.

A heavy .44 load (such as offered by Buffalo Bore) out of a carbine will eclipse the .30-30 in energy

Normal off-the-shelf .44 ammo will hit in the 1,500-1,800 ft/lbs range from a 20" gun Normal .30-30 off-the-shelf .30-30 ammo will be 1,700-1,900 from the same tube length.

e·clipse   /ɪˈklɪps/
[ih-klips]
noun, verb, e·clipsed, e·clips·ing
–verb (used with object)

surpass: a soprano whose singing eclipsed that of her rivals.


-

 

[CraigC]

24" barrelled .30-30's are not rare. I have one and another that was 24" but cut to 20" long before I came along. Folks are just used to seeing 20" carbines. Marlin and Winchester currently both make 24" models.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Past 150 yards you need tang sights on a 44, not so with a 30-30.

I prefer the Marlin action to the Winchester, the 44 is a lot of fun in a rifle.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Past 150 yards you need tang sights on a 44, not so with a 30-30.

I prefer the Marlin action to the Winchester, the 44 is a lot of fun in a rifle.

Past 150 yds the OP owns a 30/06 and 270 iirc

And yes 24" 30/30's are RARE on the used market with the vast vast majority from the past 40 years being 20" carbines


Tapatalk post via IPhone.

 

[Harley Quinn]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44_Magnum

Reloading does make the 44 Mag seem like the perfect pair, revolver on hip and carbine at shoulder...

Tests with various ammunition in the Ruger Deerfield yielded a 100 yard (90 m) velocity of over 1,300 ft/s (400 m/s) with a 240-grain (16 g) bullet, comparable to the muzzle velocity out of a revolver.[18][19] Loads using slow burning powders maximize performance in both short and long barrels, with one published load generating 1,500 ft/s (460 m/s) from a revolver, and 1,625 ft/s (495 m/s) from a carbine with a 240-grain (16 g) bullet.[20]

 

[CraigC]

That's very odd. A load that generates 1500fps out of a revolver should be running at least 1800fps from a carbine, if not 1900fps.

 

[MachIVshooter]

It appears that we have a discrepancy on the definition of eclipse.

Apparently you believe that 1,500-1,800 ft-lbs eclipses 1,700-1,900 ft/lbs.

The most common definition of "eclipse" as used in your post #12 means "surpass". The energy figures you quote in post #54 don't appear to support that assertion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by machivshooter post #12
A heavy .44 load (such as offered by Buffalo Bore) out of a carbine will eclipse the .30-30 in energy

Quote:
Originally Posted by machivshooter post #54
Normal off-the-shelf .44 ammo will hit in the 1,500-1,800 ft/lbs range from a 20" gun Normal .30-30 off-the-shelf .30-30 ammo will be 1,700-1,900 from the same tube length.

e·clipse   /ɪˈklɪps/
[ih-klips]
noun, verb, e·clipsed, e·clips·ing
–verb (used with object)

surpass: a soprano whose singing eclipsed that of her rivals.

You need to work on your reading comprehension

Once more, I said:

A heavy .44 load (such as offered by Buffalo Bore) out of a carbine will eclipse the .30-30 in energy

and then:

Normal off-the-shelf .44 ammo will hit in the 1,500-1,800 ft/lbs range from a 20" gun Normal .30-30 off-the-shelf .30-30 ammo will be 1,700-1,900 from the same tube length

Do you understand? Quit trying to prove things that nobody is arguing in the first place.

 

[shiftyer1]

I don't have a .44 but I do have a .357 carbine. I also have .357 revolvers, I love to pair them up and be able to use the same ammo. I'd like to do .44's also someday. It's a big plus to only have to grab 1 box of ammo for 2 guns.

I also own a 30-30, I think everyone should own a 30-30 lever gun.

Congrats on the .44 and the octagon barrel makes it even better I've often wondered what benefit octagon barrels serve other than good looks?

Hmm I wonder if a deer or a hog ever think..... DAMN I thought I was ok, it was only goin 1739 fps. Momma said anything under 1800 didn't hurt.

 

[45_auto]

Originally Posted by machivshooter post #12
A heavy .44 load (such as offered by Buffalo Bore) out of a carbine will eclipse the .30-30 in energy

Originally Posted by machivshooter post #54
Normal off-the-shelf .44 ammo will hit in the 1,500-1,800 ft/lbs range from a 20" gun Normal .30-30 off-the-shelf .30-30 ammo will be 1,700-1,900 from the same tube length.

I consider Buffalo Bore to be off-the-shelf ammo. Still haven't seen any references to any off-the-shelf 44 mag that "eclipses" .30-30. You do carry on about it rather impressively for not being able to provide any references, though. Do you understand?

If you want to talk hand loads and custom loads for 44's, at least use something loaded relatively hot in the .30-30 for comparison. For example, the off-the-shelf Hornady Lever Evolution claims to deliver 2400 ft-lbs of energy. Took all of 5 seconds to find a reference for it:

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=79372

Feel free to blather on at your convienience rather than provide any references to actual data. It is the internet, after all!

 

[R.W.Dale]

Yes lest compare REAL data and not the 24" test barrel velocities you seem do fond of quoting for 30/30

http://www.realguns.com/archives/120.htm

OH MY! this shows that from 20" barrels the 44 magnum Buffalo Bore I linked to DOES in fact out energy even the much vaunted leverrevolution.

Just in case you can't find if that's 1918 ft lbs for the BB 140 grn load vs 1840 ft lbs for the Hornady 30/30 both from a 20" carbine.

But hey by all means feel free to ignore the "data" and blather on after being proven wrong. This is the Internet after all.

Tapatalk post via IPhone.

 

[MachIVshooter]

I consider Buffalo Bore to be off-the-shelf ammo

Good for you. Meanwhile, everyone else realizes it's semi-custom botique ammo that's seldom stocked in any store. Of over 20 gun shops and countless sporting goods stores in the Denver area, I've only ever seen a selection of BB at the largest (The Firing Line). They carry a ton of stuff no one else does. Sportmans Warehouse used to carry some BB ammo before they closed.

Still haven't seen any references to any off-the-shelf 44 mag that "eclipses" .30-30.

Don't need to. I plainly stated in numbers that standard .44 Mag DOES NOT exceed the .30-30 in energy. Yet you seem intent that I meant the opposite.

Maybe you just have some kind of bias and are hurt to admit that there are .44 loads equal to and even in excess of .30-30. If you're somehow emotionally invested in this, that's unfortunate for you. I own guns in both chamberings and enjoy them all, and I am not bothered when new loads for one surpass the performance of another. Happens all the time. And because I don't really care, I'm able to look at this objectively and understand that 1) .44 mag has been pushed to new heights in recent years, bringing it's performance from a handgun very near the .454 Casull and 2) that any .30-.30 load listed with a test barrel of 24" is going to lose around 100 FPS in the much more common 20" barrels of Marlin and Winchester carbines.

If you want to stick with .30-30 for your purposes, go for it. It's a good round. But please stop trying to convince others that it has some kind of massive advantage over the .44 Magnum, because the reality is very different. We haven't even got into the penetration of that 340 gr. load vs. any of the available .30-30 ammo (though I'm sure you'd argue that, too)

 

[MichaelK]

Rather than go on and on about this load vs. that load it might be more worthwhile to point out that the .44 magnum starts out making a hole that's 40% bigger than a .30-30. Couple that to the idea that a .44 hollowpoint will mushroom larger than a .30-30's softpoint, you end up with a MUCH larger hole.

That, I think, is the big difference that you'll see in the field once you hit that deer. Yes, the energy level is very important, but so is the size of that hole!

 

[ExAgoradzo]

Congrats on the .44 and the octagon barrel makes it even better I've often wondered what benefit octagon barrels serve other than good looks?

Hmm I wonder if a deer or a hog ever think..... DAMN I thought I was ok, it was only goin 1739 fps. Momma said anything under 1800 didn't hurt.

Thanks, I'm stoked. Heading out at 2 today to shoot it first time. My boys will be shooting their first 20gauge as well. Very happy about that.

LOL! at your hog..."I thought I was ok!" LOL!

@everyone. I really enjoyed all this discussion. I now know a ton more about the ammo on this. Unfortunately, Bass Pro Shop doesn't have a wide selection of ammo. I'm going to get some light 44 for targeting and some larger for that deer this fall!

 

[tikka-guy]

Congrats on the purchase. I've got a 1894 in .44 mag and I love it. Absolute blast to shoot, and it's just fun to put 10 rounds in the magazine

I haven't taken anything with it yet, but I've taken it out for deer a few times. Mostly when I'm in really thick stuff, but once I figured it was the better choice due to a torrential downpour that makes a scope a pain in the butt.

I may have missed it, so if this was gone over already I apologize, but I much prefer a peep sight to the factory sights. I'd highly suggest one if it still has the factory sights on it. Skinner Sights are a popular choice, although I didn't find out about those until I already purchased some Williams sights for mine.

Have fun!

 

[ExAgoradzo]

I'll check the Skinner sights, thanks. These are factory with out a doubt. However, as I need to repair my M1894 357 and my 30-06, my gun budget is out to lunch for a bit. I tried doing a repair on my Blackhawk myself and found out that not having gunsmithing screwdrivers is a bad idea: fortunately my buddy Walt was able to help me out...

Again, thanks for the comments guys: I'm always happy to learn.