30-30 vs 44 mag lever

[VoodooMountain]

This isn’t one of those ‘ which should I buy’ threads. I have examples of both and like both.
Rather this is a question as to why the 44 lever gun isn’t as popular as the 30-30.

The 44 mag. can launch a 180 gr bullet about as fast as the 30-30 does with a 170 gr out of its short barrel. Plus, the 44 can shoot 300 gr bullets at just north of 1000 fps. It isn’t blistering fast but will certainly penetrate just about anything if your using a good cast bullet. Most 44 lever guns need to be tweaked to feed many of the 300+gr bullets but that’s not much of an issue.
Even then so many guys state how a 405 gr cast bullet from a 45/70 at 12000fps will penetrate anything that walks the planet but a 300gr bullet at 1200 fps from a 44 mag lever is anemic.

30-30 ammo is cheaper and familiar to most hunters. There is t much recoil and ammo/components are everywhere.

44 mag factory ammo is more expensive, recoil is about the same and actually much less with 180gr bullets. A guy can pair up his revolver with his lever. On paper it seems to have all the power of thr 30-30 and then much more versatility as well. 44 lever gun will also usually hold more in the tube as well.

So what am I missing? Is the 44 just overshadowed by the 45/70 and 444?
For that matter, how did the 30/30 remain so popular and thr 35 Remington become a niche round?

What makes the 30/30 so great?

 

[WrongHanded]

The way I understand it, a .44 mag loses velocity faster than the .30-30. And therefore drops more at longer ranges, and loses energy faster.

 

[Bfh_auto]

30-30 is just enough power, has less recoil than a 35 and was here before the 44 mag.
This was early in the start of the bottleneck cartridge era and people no longer needed to have dual purpose cartridges.
I would rather have a 44 but I'm kinda backwards.

 

[Tommygunn]

I think Wrong handed is right.... .30-30 has a longer reach. Also, it was developed earlier, caught on as a great deer round in a convenient longarm, and just became more .... "associated" with lever action hunting.
I too have both calibers in lever actions, a Winchester 1894AE and a Browning 1892. I'd be hard pressed to say which recoil more....but IMHO the .44 mag surprised me, I thought it's mass would absorb more kick....but I guess the barrel length increases the bullet velocity and provides more kick.

 

[JeffG]

Ubiquitous is the word for the 30/30. It's (was)everywhere, it was everywhere, hunters, LGS and places selling ammunition spoke your language. From the black powder days guns, brass, ammo were handed down. Hunting just like dad and grandpa did. Re-supply was easy and generic; 150 gr or 170 gr bullets. The 30/30 became a time honored tradition; the start of every hunter's rifle battery.

Showing up at deer camp with a 45/70 in the 60's was greeted with "Holy Chr!$+!" an elephant gun! Asking for ammo at the local bait and tackle, was greeted by a blank stare. Rifles were scarce.

The 44 mag is pretty much a "new" innovation. Hardcast and jacketed handgun bullets are a relatively new innovations. Previously, the only way to achieve penetration with soft lead bullets, was to make them longer, ala the 45/70. Now that the upper velocity ceiling has been broken with jacketed and hardcast bullets and nitrocellulose powder, the 44 has closed the gap. To me it's a great round!

I've never been a fan of the 444. I shot a buddy's Contender chambered for it in the 80's, and it felt like somebody smacked me in the hand with a fish billy. The jacketed bullets penetrated the junk truck rims we shot at; never hunted truck rims.

 

[Varminterror]

I'm about 25yrs into this particular "experiment." Personally, I favor the 44mag levergun over the 30-30, but for Average Joe's, I respect the "easier" choice of the 30-30.

Kinetic Energy, which is biased to greater velocity, favors the 30-30 by ~10%, momentum favors the 44mag by about 20%, and Taylor Factor favors 44mag by about 65%!! In real world "trials," the 44mag drops deer faster than 30-30 out to 200yrds.

The 30-30 is undeniably flatter shooting due to its higher velocity, but in many of the flat point or round nosed bullets used for the 30-30, the ballistic coefficient isn't very different between the two, and the 44mag can actually run bullets with greater aerodynamics than the Durty Thurty in some comparisons (i.e. 150 interlock vs. 240 XTP).

I run about 10% less powder to kill deer faster in the 44mag than the 30-30, and when I'm plinking, I can load twice as many rounds in the mag tube. If a guy wants to shoot 250yrds, the 30-30 has a huge advantage in trajectory management, but for 200 and less, the 44mag isn't so difficult to manage even for a moderate shooter.

The 30-30, while not famous among precision rifles, it certainly has a greater reputation for precision than 44mag rifles. Personally, I think this is self-fulfilling among many shooters, as I've seen guys unwilling to do any load work up with revolver cartridge carbines, and simply feed whatever's cheap and available, while being more discerning with the 30-30 AND guys are even more unwilling to put a scope on top of their 44mag's, where it's almost become normal on 30-30's (almost...). Finding 1MOA 44mag 1894's is less common than 1MOA 30-30 336's, but either are more than precise enough for deer hunting.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Marlin made a 336 in both calibers in the 1963, not a short amount of time ago. The 30-30 has a range advantage. Close in, the 44 can shoot a heavier bullet. Out west .30-30 ruled the roost, the 44 was for close in eastern brush deer. .45/70 and .444 wasn't selling like hotcakes and Marlin offered a alternative. It didn't feed well in the 336 action and in 1969 they redesigned the 1894 action for 44 mag, which was a lighter rifle.

I suspect Dirty Harry's 44 Model 29 didn't hurt the concept as the "most powerful handgun cartridge in the world," maybe some thought it would kick TOO much. No doubt any lever gun off a bench kicks like a mule, but standing they are fairly soft (for deer capable guns) shooters.

 

[Mosin Bubba]

A lot of it is the velocity. The 30-30 has more range than the 44 Mag, and still is plenty big enough to take down a deer.

I think perception also plays a part too - 30-30's reputation as a deer round is beyond question, whereas 44 mag in a long gun is thought of as a big-bore plinker or a 50 yard thumper. Some of those revolver rounds in a PCC have a lot more juice than people tend to think. I'm a little surprised at how much smack 357s have every time I load up my 16" Rossi.

Even then so many guys state how a 405 gr cast bullet from a 45/70 at 12000fps will penetrate anything that walks the planet

Because it will!

 

[chicharrones]

Around here, a .30-30 lever gun has usually cost no more than 2/3 the cost of a .44 Magnum lever gun. The only people I knew years ago that considered purchasing a .44 mag lever gun already had a .44 mag handgun. Most .30-30 owners I knew when I was young didn't have the coin to have a .44 mag handgun.

 

[Fiv3r]

I think a lot of it has to do with tradition, as was mentioned. Around here, if you ask any backwoods guy what he thinks of when you mention a "deer rifle" they will probably think of a .30-30 lever gun. Everyone has one on their safe or used as a truck gun, just like their dad and his dad before him.

Keep in mind that it's been years since it has been legal to hunt deer with a .30-30 in Indiana. However, the .30-30 is the gun you keep strapped to your Four Wheeler or when stomping around the grounds or for dispatching a coyote.

The. 44 magnum is a "handgun round" (and ironically, I believe, a legal deer cartridge in the state) that chambers in a gun that is hard to come by, well harder than a marlin 336.

Like a lot of things gun related, it's a moot point for reloaders. However, for a guy who buys a box of 20 cartridges a year, the .30-30 certainly is more economical and "known" even if the numbers aren't really that empirical.

Personally, I would be fine with either as I don't hunt. I'm still waiting for .357 lever guns to actually show up on the racks. That would be an ideal gun for my recreational needs plus pack enough of a wallop to take care of anything I might run across.

 

[SamT1]

I sure wish you could walk into a pawn shop and buy a used slightly beat up 44 for $200! I’d guarantee you I could go to Abilene right now with $1000 in my pocket and come home with 4 30-30 rifles and a couple boxes of ammo.

 

[jmr40]

I have handguns and rifles in 44 mag, rifles in 30-30 plus others. Out to about 75 yards a 44 mag hits harder. Beyond that the 30-30 wins at everything. My 30-30 rifles are a lot more accurate at any range and recoil less. Rifles in 30-30 are a lot less expensive, ammo is about the same price for typical stuff. There are some specialty loads for 44 mag that may improve performance somewhat but they are pricey.

I do think the 44 mag is often overlooked. When fired from rifles it can be impressive, but for most people it simply isn't worth the costs.

 

[mcb]

I agree with many of the point here but from a pure carry point of view a Model 92 with a 16-inch barrel in 44 Mag is so much handier than a Model 94 or 336 in 30-30. As a brush gun in rough steep terrain I would rather be carrying my M92 than my M94.

 

[mcmurry]

I own a 336 and shoot Hornady LeveRevolution 30-30 160 grain shells. I had a Ruger .44 Carbine. I never had the opportunity to shoot a deer with the .44 mag. Both the 30-30 and the 45/70 have been around over 100 years and the .44 mag hasn't yet. Where I live, we grew up with a 12 gauge, and everyone we knew "graduated" to a 30-30. Most of us hunt pine thickets and 100 yards is a very long shot. I say it's whatever you prefer and whatever is available whenever you go shopping.

 

[gotboostvr]

I've been using a 44mag lever gun for deer the past few years and it knocks 'em flat and is a joy to carry in the brush compared to a slug gun or 45/70 which is about my only other options.

Given the way I hunt though, mostly drives, even if I had cart blanche, I'd probably still carry my 16" Stainless steel Rossi 92 44mag. I worked up a good load with 240gr XTP's that'll put 5 rounds in one hole at 50 yards. Im not sure what else I need.

 

[BigBore44]

Both are fantastic chamberings for deer and even black bear with factory ammunition.

However, if you reload, you know that both can be significantly “awakened”. I don’t own a 30-30. I probably never will. I already own a 44, 444, and 45-70. There’s no realistic reason for me to have one. But that in no way means that the 30-30 is lacking anywhere. It isn’t. My shots are just never farther than 150 yards. Ever. Most (85%) are less than 50. At those ranges, I’m perfectly happy with my choices available.

As to why the 44 isn’t more popular.... Because it a handgun cartridge. And it’s small (read shorter) than many other popular leverguns calibers. Those “in the know”, know that’s its very capable. Those that only get their information from magazines and tv shows think it’s only capable with Buffalo Bore and the like. And that’s simply not true.

As a side note, my 1894 holds 10+1 of 44 Mag in the tube. Never seen a 30-30 that did that.

So shhhhh. Don’t let our secret out.

 

[eastbank]

if you need 11 rounds to kill a deer, a trip to the range is in order. with the new 30-30 ammo with plastic tips pushs the range the 30-30 can be used. eastbank.

 

[CraigC]

Even then so many guys state how a 405 gr cast bullet from a 45/70 at 12000fps will penetrate anything that walks the planet but a 300gr bullet at 1200 fps from a 44 mag lever is anemic.

Yep. Perception is a funny thing. Probably most of it has to do with rifle hunters being enamored of velocity and handgun hunters being a little closer to reality. In reality, the .30-30 has more range but the .44 is capable of taking much larger critters.

 

[Riomouse911]

It's tough to overcome a 50-odd year head start the .30 WCF has...plus the .30-30 has always been advertised as a sporting rifle round, while the .44 Mag started life as a sporting handgun round.

The other issue is overlap: similar short range performance for deer-bear-pigs, most often in similar lever action guns. ( Obviously single shots, bolts, semi autos etc. have been offered in one or both rounds as well)

I have 1894's in both calibers, and if I was to choose one over the other for a deer hunt I would reach for the .30-30 version first. I think it would be a bit more versatile over a longer distance should that become an issue... but at 100 yds and less I doubt there's much difference between them. The .30-30 in that case would just be personal preference.

Stay safe!

 

[SwampWolf]

The 44 mag. can launch a 180 gr bullet about as fast as the 30-30 does with a 170 gr out of its short barrel.

I took a quick glance at an older Federal ammunition catalog and found a pretty significant difference in terms of muzzle velocity between these two cartridges with the bullet weights cited: 180 grain "Power Shok" .44 Magnum bullet is 1610 fps; 170 grain "Power Shok" .30-30 bullet is 2200 fps; a difference of 590 fps. I'm not sure how the same bullets compare when shot out of barrels having the same length but I'm sure, though the difference between the two would be less pronounced, it would still be significant, whatever "significant" might mean to an individual shooter/hunter.

 

[eastbank]

well a 405 cast bullet shot from a 45-70 at 12,000fps would be some thing to see, let alone shooting it from a shoulder held rifle. eastbank.

 

[PapaG]

I want to see that 12,000 fps load (lol).
I have, or have had, most of the common calibers in lever action guns. Presently one 357 model 92 (a Winchester), two 44 mags, one each W and M, two 30-30s, again one each, and an original 444. Have had a .348, a 45-70, and a 30-40.
Any and all would be good deer guns at proper distances. My own experience, and mine alone--yours may vary, is that of my present gun stash, the Marlin 30-30 would be my choice with factory Leverolution ammo, the .444 for sitting in a blind, and the 94 30-30 for carrying. I've not gotten satisfactory accuracy out of either 44 to be comfortable beyond 100 yards but both have either microgroove, or microgroove-type rifling with the slow 1 in 38 twist.
I find little difference in carrying either my 92 or my 94. Of course, the former is a rifle and the latter a carbine so it is a little less convenient. I do believe the 30-30 has the edge at ranges past a hundred yards.
Unfortunately for me, my state mandates shotguns and my back surgeries and advanced arthritic conditions have curtailed much out of state hunting. Hoping the pistol caliber rifle bill passes so I can use my second choice 44 here in Illinois. When I am fooling around on my little farm I normally have one of the handy little carbines along. I hit 'yotes better with the 30-30 for some reason.

 

[roo_ster]

My wife's Rossi 92 in .44mag is just the handiest little thing, so much handier and lighter than any .30-30 I have toted. For me, in that power level, the package it comes in (WIn 92 & clones for .44mag) is what breaks the tie.

I have nothing against .30-30, but if I need more range or power than the .44mag can provide, I'll slide right on up to a big bore like .45-70 or a .308Win class modern chambering.

 

[CraigC]

I took a quick glance at an older Federal ammunition catalog and found a pretty significant difference in terms of muzzle velocity between these two cartridges with the bullet weights cited: 180 grain "Power Shok" .44 Magnum bullet is 1610 fps...

That's handgun velocity. Although I see little utility in a 180gr .44 load. Good for varmints and lung-only shots on deer.

 

[mcb]

I took a quick glance at an older Federal ammunition catalog and found a pretty significant difference in terms of muzzle velocity between these two cartridges with the bullet weights cited: 180 grain "Power Shok" .44 Magnum bullet is 1610 fps; 170 grain "Power Shok" .30-30 bullet is 2200 fps; a difference of 590 fps. I'm not sure how the same bullets compare when shot out of barrels having the same length but I'm sure, though the difference between the two would be less pronounced, it would still be significant, whatever "significant" might mean to an individual shooter/hunter.

Look at a manufacture like Buffalo bore that list velocities for their 44 Magnum offerings with real world chronograph data from revolvers and carbines. Most of there loads see a 300-400 fps difference between a 5-6 inch revolver to a carbine length barrel. 44 Magnum from a carbine is a very potent round.