.308 AR - Wrong Primer - Blew Firing Pin Out of Bolt Carrier

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Load Master said:
Can you point to where I said that?
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The title of thread sort of implies it. I think that's one reason everyone keeps coming back to your load data.

And I also understand it's your thread, respect your desire to keep it focused on the confusing nomenclature of S&B primers and fully support you on it. It's just not easy to do given how it all started
 
I think this would qualify as where you said it LM. Its not directly stated, but other than the change in charge.. you seem to be associating the primers (two blown out and it blew the firing pin out of the carrier). Its not directly stated.. but many folks are inferring that is your mindset.

With the next step up in charge level, two rounds fired of the 10 round set I had a primer blow out. It blew the firing pin totally out of the bolt carrier. The firing pin found its way below the bolt and protruding into the magazine well as can be seen here.
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Nature Boy said:
The title of thread sort of implies it. I think that's one reason everyone keeps coming back to your load data.

And I also understand it's your thread, respect your desire to keep it focused on the confusing nomenclature of S&B primers and fully support you on it. It's just not easy to do given how it all started
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The Title, was to point out that the chart on Sellier & Bellot US website (LINK) shows I should NOT have been using the primer I did. I explained that in my original post. I also stated I was at the end of a load development test. What I dislike about a number of comments, they focus on the load development, which I intentionally left out of this thread. I planned to cover this at a later time in another thread once I have all of the details, which I currently do not. For this thread my intent was to communicate the difference on Sellier & Bellot 2+ different websites as to what primer to use for .308 Winchester rounds. I hope to hear back from S&B with clarification and I will forward anything I hear. I supplied them with data, photos, and information. I believe they are far more qualified to asses this compared to any of us here. We seem to have no shortage of experts that can look at a few photos and give their "expert" opinions without knowing all the details.
 
If you have some Large Rifle Primers and wouldn't mind, could you measure the primer cup wall to compare to this and report back what you find? Thanks!
35817253560_dbb723105d_c.jpg
 
Just noticed you did it in MM.

They are hard to measure, but here it is.

Win .40MM
Fed .42MM
Wolf .43MM
 
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Load Master said:
...As far as the charge level, this was well within the published data. The round that caused this recorded 2675 fps of the Match King HPBT 175 gr bullet. ...
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Load Master said:
20" 1:10
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Load Master said:
I'm well within the published data from multiple sources.

View attachment 758238
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CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Using your data I get 68K psi.
Lxgk2cI.png
The Sierra manual shows a maximum of 42.8 grains. Quickload agrees exactly with the Sierra manual for their 42.8 grain max load. The Hornady, Nosler, and Berger manuals all show max of somewhere under 44 grains. I think your real complaint should be with the IMR data.

Regarding the primer measurements, you need to measure the face of the primer, not the sides. The drawing operation thins the sides. It is a pain to do because you need to dissemble a live primer. Primer info on the web shows that a nominal face thickness is 0.027" for virtually all LR primers. It will be interesting to see what the S&B's measure compared to others.
 
I have fired thousands of the SB primers with no issues that I have found. The only trouble I had was with light springs in a revolver. 2 more lbs on the hammer spring and they are 100 percent reliable so far.

Both packages, the older green and the newer black ones, get used here.

I have used them in: warm level and cold level 44 mag, hot and cold 38 special, 45 acp, warm and cold 357, warm and hot 9mm, hot 10mm, typical 223 (69 smk 24.8g varget loaded a bit long), typical 308 win (178 amax 42.8g varget), 30 30, warm 30 06 loads, hot and cold 7.62x54r, all kinds of 45-70 loads, super and sub 300 blk, 458 socom and I am sure a few others too.

Mind you, I am not hot rodding any of the loads really, but I would consider them typical hunting level loads. These primers seem to do well and are give good consistent results near as I can tell.

Something that might be helpful... I shoot mostly bolt action 308 win, BUT I do have a GAP built ar10. It is awesome! Shoots as you would expect, and the build quality is top notch. BUT it gets its own loadings and they are separate from the bolt action loads. Hot hot bolt action loads WILL pop primers (yes even cci) in the gas gun. Simple as that. MY gas gun shows pressure at a lower level than any of my bolt guns. Several other ar10s that have come and gone gave similar results, so I expect this is pretty normal to see. Not a jab at the OP, but I never expect to get near load guide velocity from the gasser.

Any chance you are using pulled 175 smks? I have used many of them and they should be sorted.... I have found more than a few that had ogives out of spec enough to cause pressure problems if you are ANYWHERE near a max load. My pulls all get sorted by ogive and run through a 308 sizer. Pain in the neck, but it lets me get good safe results with pulls.
 
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Load Master said:
The Title, was to point out that the chart on Sellier & Bellot US website (LINK) shows I should NOT have been using the primer I did. I explained that in my original post. I also stated I was at the end of a load development test. What I dislike about a number of comments, they focus on the load development, which I intentionally left out of this thread. I planned to cover this at a later time in another thread once I have all of the details, which I currently do not. For this thread my intent was to communicate the difference on Sellier & Bellot 2+ different websites as to what primer to use for .308 Winchester rounds. I hope to hear back from S&B with clarification and I will forward anything I hear. I supplied them with data, photos, and information. I believe they are far more qualified to asses this compared to any of us here. We seem to have no shortage of experts that can look at a few photos and give their "expert" opinions without knowing all the details.[/QUOTE]

But there in lies the reason for all the speculation, charts, graphs and what not.

You did not provide ALL the details here.:)

Just saying as I really have no idea of who, what, when or why.?
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Yesterday evening I sent a message to the S&B contact overseeing my inquiry. He informed me that I should have a reply early next week. The factory is on holiday this week, back in operation on Monday. Lot of stuff going on this time of year there. Link
 
I will put my opinion in that S&B will say the 5.3 LR primer is correct for the .308 Winchester and the chart showing that the chart showing the 5.3 LR-SE as the correct primer is an error / mistake / misprint.

I will also take a SWAG that the O/P's charge of IMR 4064 powder is near or north ^ of 43.0 grains, but we're guessing here.

I bought a brick of the 5.3 LR primers, but have only shot about 200 of them in my various 308 rifles with no issues so far.

I'm interested in what S&B has to say. Looking forward to it.
 
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Load Master said:
Yesterday evening I sent a message to the S&B contact overseeing my inquiry. He informed me that I should have a reply early next week. The factory is on holiday this week, back in operation on Monday. Lot of stuff going on this time of year there. Link
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Any reply or news??
 
Rule3 said:
Any reply or news??
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Yes, I am in contact with a representative at the factory. I'll be posting details as soon as I hear back from him to clarify a few more items regarding their primers.

What I've learn, they do manufacture different large rifle primers, the 5,3 LR, 5,3 LR-SE or 5,3 LRM. I have been using the 5,3 LR, I believe it is the only one currently offered here in the states. The 5,3 LR have a nominal cup thickness of .63mm. The 5,3 LR-SE or 5,3 LRM have a nominal cup thickness of .70mm. The rep pointed out that the 5,3 LR is primarily for bolt action rifles. The other two are for semi and full auto rifles. They offer the 5,3 LR which is more sensitive compared to the others. The 5,3 LR-SE and 5,3 LRM might not be sensitive enough for some bolt action guns. I am trying to find out if Sellier & Bellot have any retailers here in the US that sell the heaver cup primers. The rep confirmed from the data and photos I sent that I should in fact be using the heaver cup primers.
 
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Read all 4 pages of posts and based on my own experience, you're barking up the wrong tree. If you want to delve into the nomenclature of S&B primers, nothing at all wrong with that. But I think running a 175 gr. Sierra almost 2700 fps out of a 20" AR can only be accomplished by loading to excessive pressures, especially with the powder in question.

Years ago a buddy of mine owned two 6.5x55's; a sporterized '96 Mauser and a Ruger 77. One load in particular that shot very well in the Mauser would blow primers in the Ruger. This enforces the point that someone made earlier regarding the fact that just because a load is safe in one rifle, doesn't automatically mean it's safe in another.

I've never used S&B LR primers, but I've gone through almost a case (5,000) LP primers without a single problem.

35W
 
35 Whelen said:
Read all 4 pages of posts and based on my own experience, you're barking up the wrong tree. If you want to delve into the nomenclature of S&B primers, nothing at all wrong with that. But I think running a 175 gr. Sierra almost 2700 fps out of a 20" AR can only be accomplished by loading to excessive pressures, especially with the powder in question.

I've never used S&B LR primers, but I've gone through almost a case (5,000) LP primers without a single problem.

35W
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Apparently, you missed this post. LINK We have no shortage of experts, even those who have never used the given primers or have any idea on the details. As far as "barking up the wrong tree", my primary question was and still is which primer I should have been using for my given application, and in my last post, it clearly states that the S&B rep, who has all the details stated it was in fact the WRONG primer as shown in their chart here. What I found out for sure, this chart is correct.
index.php
 
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Load Master said:
We have no shortage of experts, even those who have never used the given primers or have any idea on the details.
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So, how many 'experts' agree with you Load Master?

Wouldn't it be amazing if S&B sold LR primers in the US, and the only primer LR primer they sell isn't suitable for one of the most popular cartridges, and has no warning on the packaging?

In terms of the chart you keep referring too, all the cartridges listed for the 5.3 LR-SE (which indeed may have a thicker cup), are cartridges used by the military. They're likely similar to CCI #34 7.62mm NATO-Spec Military primers. The fact that CCI has #34 primers doesn't mean that CCI #200 LR Primers aren't suitable for .308 Win.

Maybe there is no shortage of 'Load Master's, sure their own issue is anybody's fault but their own, and not getting any info from S&B, because there is no info from S&B that supports their theory.

People in Glass Houses....
 
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