.308 load test

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Hi,

Is the orange sticker 1" in diameter? If so I would never have called that degree of shot displacement.

Now you really got me thinking.

Would you mind if I shared the picture of the three targets on our local reloading forum? I would like to share what you have found for the edification of others.

Cheers
 
The results seem to indicate that runout could be causing some of my flyers. (.003/.002/.001)
Click to expand...
If that repeats its self over and over, yes.
Straight is definitely good for accuracy, which makes that test believable, but with all things accuracy, it needs to repeat its self.

.003 runout isn't very good, and can easily be bettered.
 
Andrew, feel free to use whatever you like. Yes, 1" dots

And I will repeat this again walkalong. I'm thinking a sizing die upgrade might be in my future. I already use the Redding micrometer seating die
 
In evaluating runout, I want to answer 2 questions for myself.

1. Obviously how much it affects accuracy and consistency.
2. How much runout does my process cause.

If the answer to 1 is "significant" and the answer to 2 is "too much" then I'll need a solution.

I loaded up 40 rounds yesterday and it breaks out like this:

20 rounds - .001 or less / 50%
16 rounds - between .001 and .002 / 40%
4 rounds - between .002 and .003 / 10%

I want to have 10 of each, so I'm going to use the Hornady tool to add more runout to 6 rounds from group 2 and shoot them with group 3. That should give me an idea about the affects on accuracy.
 
I can't remember what type of press you are using but one of the tricks you can use with a standard single stage press is to add a rubber 'O' ring to the threaded portion of the seating die. The 'O' ring will sit between the die's lock ring and the top of the press and this allows the die to adjust itself to small differences in the bullets and case which can reduce the runout variation.

I also seat the bullet and then rotate it and seat it second time, this helps reduce runout too.

I also like to buy the more expensive bullets, better bullets are more consistent in their dimensions and shapes.
 
Nature Boy said:
In evaluating runout, I want to answer 2 questions for myself.

1. Obviously how much it affects accuracy and consistency.
2. How much runout does my process cause.

If the answer to 1 is "significant" and the answer to 2 is "too much" then I'll need a solution.

I loaded up 40 rounds yesterday and it breaks out like this:

20 rounds - .001 or less / 50%
16 rounds - between .001 and .002 / 40%
4 rounds - between .002 and .003 / 10%

I want to have 10 of each, so I'm going to use the Hornady tool to add more runout to 6 rounds from group 2 and shoot them with group 3. That should give me an idea about the affects on accuracy.
Click to expand...
Following with great interest.
 
Nature Boy said:
Andrew, feel free to use whatever you like. Yes, 1" dots

And I will repeat this again walkalong. I'm thinking a sizing die upgrade might be in my future. I already use the Redding micrometer seating die
Click to expand...
You have to start off with straight brass before you can get a completed round that is straight. Check the new brass, check the sized brass, etc, etc.
 
Andrew. I would have had some results to post, but it was Mother's Day here in the states and momma takes priority, as she should.

MacGrumpy. I'm using a Dillon 650. The O ring might be worth trying. I can see how that might provide just enough play to allow the seating die to self center, but is that necessary with the Redding micrometer seating die? I'll also see what happens if I seat, rotate and seat again. That's easy to check.

Walkalong, I don't have any new brass at the moment. Everything is 2+ times processed.
 
One thing about the LNL is the bushings riding on orings seem to at least try to center up.
 
I shot the runout groups this morning and here are the result. 10 shots each at 100 yards
19198121-FBA8-4748-9D26-CA75DB0C303F.jpg

It's pretty clear and follows what my smaller sample showed, as well as what conventional says about concentricity.

The other thing I did was run some brass through the sizer a second time. I had read that the process of trimming brass can add to runout and sizing them again brings them back in line. I found it made them consistently worse. I loaded 10 2x sized cases and that all came out .003-.004. Go figure.

Looks like I might be on the hunt for a bushing type resizing die if they improve runout over the expander ball types.

Feedback welcome
 
I had read that the process of trimming brass can add to runout and sizing them again brings them back in line. I found it made them consistently worse
Click to expand...
What is "it" in this instance? Trimming or sizing?
 
"It" - running the cases through the sizer again after trimming - made runout worse

Also, one thing I want to make sure I'm clear on. The runout I'm measuring and indicating here is the total range. So when I'm indicating ".003" runout, it would be .003 total, or .0015 per side.

That's the correct way to reference it, right?
 
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Nature Boy, as you are on the quest for perfection I though I would share this from a post on a local forum. The source data comes from Any Shot You Want - The A-Square Handloading and Rifle Manual by Arthur B. Alphin.

Now as for concentricity it would appear as if the author would almost be arguing the same for annealing.

Annealing.jpg

I noticed what appears to be a typo on the second table where CUP pressures are noted. I think this should read Psi or vice versa.
 
Repeated firings/sizings definitely affects neck tension. I have to go to a tighter bushing after three firings or anneal the brass to keep things the same. It's not that big of a deal if you are FL sizing with an expander where you are over doing it. With a bushing die and light neck tension it really shows up.

I am using an RCBS bushing in my Redding .308 FL sizer. I have some of both and prefer the RCBS bushings over the Redding ones.

I haven't seen the Hornady bushings.
 
When 0.5 MOA is no longer good enough is the point where this hobby becomes a disease.

So if I get a bushing sizer I'll also need to consider annealing?
 
and then there was neck turning. small groups gets expensive real fast.

murf
 
I use the Redding Type S bushing die. When I want to be really fussy I;

  • ...decap using a universal decapper
  • ...cull the cases by gauging the primer pocket
  • ...uniform the primer pockets
  • ...clean the cases in an ultrasonic cleaner
  • ...lube the case with Imperial Sizing Die Wax (it's thinner than most other lubricants and helps reduce neck setback variation)
  • ...resize partially (not all the way down the case body) with a FL die that has the sizing button installed
  • ...anneal the neck
  • ...resize a second time (all the way down the neck with a neck sizing die) with the Type S die and no sizing button (a neck die works very well for a bolt gun as long as you keep the brass separated for that bolt gun only, if you use the brass for more than one gun or you use it for a semi-auto gun then use a full length or small base resizing die, whichever you prefer)
  • ...ream the inside of the neck (inside diameter is .003" to .004" smaller than the outside diameter of the bullet's shank which eliminates any brass doughnut and provides the amount of neck/bullet friction that I prefer with my .308 Win ammo)
  • ...turn the outside of the neck (the neck wall thickness becomes consistent all the way around which helps reduce differences in neck friction as the bullet begins to move)
  • ...trim the case using a 3-way trimmer that chamfers, trims, and tapers the case mouth
  • ...clean a final time in the ultrasonic cleaner

When I prep my brass this way and when I'm very precise about my powder charge and I verify/adjust the runout with my Hornady concentricity tool I can usually get very low standard deviation numbers and nice groups. If I'm careful I can get single digit velocity deviations with twice fired Lapua brass from my less than precise M1A semi-auto rifle. My runout is usually .002" or less right out of the seating die and without adjusting the cartridges in the Hornady tool. Getting less than .001" runout is easy to achieve but I rarely bother adjusting the cartridges to that kind of precision since I'm usually shooting them out of my M1A, I will adjust them to .001" or less runout if I'm making the cartridges for a bolt gun.
 
If you're going to use a bushing die with out the expander button . You will need to turn your necks . Using a bushing die with out the expander will only insure the outside of the case neck is concentric . So if your case wall thickness is off by .001 or more . The inside concentricity of the neck will be off by .001 or more .

I know using the expander in a bushing die seems counter productive and it is to a point . Keep in mind though that you are controlling the amount of how much you are sizing down the neck . Unlike a standard die that sizes the neck WAY down and the expander drags back through it opening it up to the proper inside diameter . How ever when using a bushing die you are only sizing the neck down a small amount in comparison to a standard die . This results in the expander only lightly draging through the neck . This should result in the expander having less deflection on the neck .
 
For not much money, the Lee Collet sizers seem to work pretty well. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/555614/lee-collet-neck-sizer-die-308-winchester

Nice thing is you don't need to muck around with different bushings depending on your neck thickness as it'll do the deed no matter how thick or thin they are. I'm not sure the Lee die will match up to the very best of the best out there, but for the money they do seem to work pretty well and the ammo comes out straight...especiall if you spin it a couple times when crimping down the neck.
 
Giving the O ring trick you guys recommended a try this evening. Will know shortly if it works

24656019-140D-4789-85F0-897C6438A919.jpg
 
If you're going to use a bushing die with out the expander button . You will need to turn your necks .
Click to expand...
It depends on the quality of the brass, and how OCD you want to get. I do not turn my Lapua brass in .308 that I use a bushing die for. I don't do it for my .223 either.
 
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