308 win vs 30-06 for hunting

[chas08]

Pot-A-to - Pot-O-to! I went with the 06 because it has been around for more than a hundred years and you can find ammo anywhere! The 06 sure does leave a grievous exit wound as Kachok says! Much worse than my 7mm Rem Mag. But Ive never seen one as bad as Kachok's picture!

My first 06 Deer! Taken a few days after Christmas with my new Remington 7600 Carbine! The bullet entered in the wrinkle behind the opposite shoulder, and did not hit any heavy bone!

For the matter of record: the bullet was a 150 gr. pointed soft point Winchester factory load! delivered at about 70 yards!

 

[MCMXI]

There is no discernible difference between the two on any game animal in the field. They kill anything equally well. However I've noticed that while you can't find a single round of .308 anywhere in country due to the tactical weapon scare. .30-06 is plentiful everywhere. That right there is enough make me lean towards the good ole reliable .30-06. That way the next time we have a tactical weapon melt down you'll be able to feed your hunting rifle off the shelf at Wally World..

I hope the OP gave this post the attention that it deserves. A non reloader trying to choose between the .308 Win and .30-06 Srpg CARTRIDGES (same CALIBER) needs to consider the point raised by H&H since this is the only important consideration. This debate is moot for anyone who reloads.

It would seem that many here need to choose better bullets too ... weight and construction.

 

[dodge]

Kachok, This does not reflect the experience that I've had with the Sierra 165 gr Soft point Game King but does look like maybe it came from a Hollow point but then again I don't shot them in the neck either. I've been using the soft point for quite a few years and never had a exit wound like that and I've shot deer from 10 yards out to about 250 (+ or -) yards. My load will push this bullet at 2700 fps.

 

[chas08]

It would seem that many here need to choose better bullets too ... weight and construction.

It would seem to me that a Winchester 150 gr PSP Factory load would be Just the thing for whitetailed deer, but this is my first and only kill with this gun, as it is new! And the only 06 I've ever owned!

 

[MCgunner]

Meh, the ammo shortage has not affected my center fires. What really peeves me is not being able to get .22LR bulk pack for my daily shooting sessions with rimfire, rifle and handgun. I do handload, but I would not let a temporary shortage of ammo dictate my choice of rifles were I in the market. This will be over, next one when Hillary is elected might be .30-06 shortages. Who can predict THAT? The BOB/EOTWAWKI loonies are unpredictable. Who the HELL woulda thunk they'd buy up all the .22LR on the market? Is it particularly effective on Zombies or something? I can't reload .22LR, but I can reload and do for the .308 and ALL my centerfire weapons. I started handloading when I was ten years of age, 50 years ago. I don't know the last box of factory ammo I bought, think it was back in the early 80s after moving and having not set up my reloader, yet, needed a box or two to sight in for deer season, +P .257 Roberts Winchester 100 grain silver tip loads. That gun works MUCH better with handloads, though.

Anyway, never fear, supply WILL catch up with demand and I WILL find federal bulk pack on the Walmart ammo shelves again in the future. I prefer the little rifles the .308 is popular in and .308 does better in short barrels than does the .30-06. Mine is a 20" bbl stainless Remington M7 topped with a Weaver 2x10x40. I'm good with that in a box blind in the heavy woods behind my house, the slightly more open, but brushy as heck with tall grass and oak mots coastal plain where my other place is located, or the open country of the Guadalupe Mountains. Perfect for all situations, not that a long action 26" bull barrel gun weighing 3 lbs more wouldn't work, just sayin'.....

 

[Kachok]

Could it be that you're using Ballistic Tips / match bullets or some other too fragile bullet?

Nope quite certain Serria did not swap our my 165gr Game King BTSP with the 168gr Match King they do in fact look quite different and I have done this before
To Dodges point I think I have discovered the perfect storm of exit wound, a full powerd load with rapid expansion bullets hitting small deer at close range, just enough terminal travel to fully expand not nearly enough to slow it down. Slightly larger deer would no doubt absorb more of that energy and probably shrink those exit wounds quite a bit though meat damage could still be as bad if shoulder shot.
BTW I did not buy my 06 for deer hunting, we have rather large pigs on the river 30-06 power is not wasted them them, my brother just fell in love with that rifle, now I have to work up a reduced/slower/tougher meat hunting load since I cannot beat him off my 06.

 

[shaggy430]

30-06. I've killed boatloads of deer with an '06. I've never had an exit wound like Kachok. I've used Nosler Partitions, Accubonds, or good old Remington Core-Lokt. My Dad stopped using Game Kings in the '70's because they were too explosive.

Use a good controlled expansion bullet.

 

[788Ham]

Have him shoot them in the ribs, won't lose all of that good gnawin' meat! Man, thats a heck of an exit wound, I've shot P-dogs that didn't look that bad!

 

[Andrew Leigh]

If you still have not bought a rifle let me chime in with some other thoughts.

Recoil (from Chuck Hawks)
.308 with 180gr, @ 2610fps = 17.5 foot lbs recoil energy and 11.9 recoil velocity
30-06 with 180gr, @ 2610fps = 20.3 foor lbs recoil energy and and 12.8 recoil velocity

"I estimate that fifteen foot pounds of free recoil energy and 10 fps of recoil velocity represent the approximate upper limit of the comfort level. Above that recoil becomes increasingly intrusive. Also, the effects of recoil are cumulative. The longer you shoot, and the harder the rifle kicks, the more likely you are to flinch. These are good things to remember when comparing rifle cartridges, and at the range."

You will note that a decent load in the 30-06 presents about 16% more recoil energy.

Reloading (now this is personal reflection being a 30-06 hunter/reloader)
I bought the 06 for flexibility (one gun fits all) so I could reload up and down the scale, light and fast for plains animals, slow and heavy for the animals confined to heavy brush.

Well the truth is that for me it did not work out that way. I ended up with one load, 180gr Accubonds which results in almost no meat damage. I could not see anything in Africa, that I could afford to shoot, that could not be taken with a 30-06. I would qualify and say that I would load mono's for Eland.

It made no sense to me to have three different loads and therfore three different trajectories. The ability to actually place the shot where I want is of paramount importance, so understanding trajectory was just as important.

I also soon realised that I would prefer to have a different calibre to do a different job rather than a different load and bullet. For this reason I added the the 6.5X55mm Swede with a 140gr, @ 2650fps = 10.6 foor lbs recoil energy and and 8.7 recoil velocity. This can shoot over some distance accurately, will certainly sort out most the stuff I can afford to shoot and best of all wife and grandbuddies can use it with ease. The 6.5 punches well above it's weight if you buy a modern rifle and reload yourself.

When shooting from behind a bench developing loads, the 30-06 can be harsh and if you are not recoil tolerant then it can rapidly lead to a flinch. The 30-06 is deemed to be at the max of most shooter recoil tolerance.

I think the key is if you reload and how recoil tolerant you are. Reloading removes dependency on ammo supply while reloading allows you to explore the upper reaches of any calibre.

Don't allow the "man testosterone thing" to get you. Largest calibre, fastest load, I can handle any rifle type thinking. I see it all the time where people seem to want the extreme. Smaller calibres can bring home plenty fresh meat. I prefer to rely on shot placement than raw power to do the job for me. It is seldom that one will be shooting out to 400yds so to buy a rifle to cater for say 95% of your shots rather than the 5%.
Tell us how it goes.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Remember, in damage like the op's photo....
It isn't the bullet thats directly responsible for all that damage.

It's the secondary "missles" or projectiles caused by bullet impact to bone. The bone becomes secondary projectiles and "cut" out tissue as it's ejected the way you see.

Sierra's expand with a wide mushroom. The 165 has high kinetic energy and when applied to bone, the resulting wound is created...

Ergo, a cast bullet with similar energy or a monolithic like a Barnes bullet will expand with a narrower mushroom and cause fewer/smaller secondary projectiles with a much narrower permanant wound channel.
In my experience, the 7mmRemMag is the WORST at this. But the .300WinMag and such with 150-165gr bullets routinely do this...
Again, just my experience from seeing dozens to hundreds of whitetail deer a day, shot with centerfires from .22Hornet to .458winmag, not to mention 20ga to 10ga shotguns and .40-.72cal muzzle loaders over 20+years... (not to mention those "poached" with a .22rf).
To avoid any meat loss, shoot them in the head with a .22-250, .243, or such. An '06 to the body has the potential to cause meat loss.... no getting around it. But, you WILL recover your deer with a solid hit.... Hence it's still popular after 100yrs....

 

[MCgunner]

Recoil (from Chuck Hawks)
.308 with 180gr, @ 2610fps = 17.5 foot lbs recoil energy and 11.9 recoil velocity
30-06 with 180gr, @ 2610fps = 20.3 foor lbs recoil energy and and 12.8 recoil velocity

"I estimate that fifteen foot pounds of free recoil energy and 10 fps of recoil velocity represent the approximate upper limit of the comfort level. Above that recoil becomes increasingly intrusive. Also, the effects of recoil are cumulative. The longer you shoot, and the harder the rifle kicks, the more likely you are to flinch. These are good things to remember when comparing rifle cartridges, and at the range."

You will note that a decent load in the 30-06 presents about 16% more recoil energy.

Recoil is subjective. I shoot a lot of heavy kicking guns. Try 21 rounds in one morning of goose hunting shooting a 10 gauge 3.5" magnum with T shot. That'll make you stiff the next day. What I can tolerate, you might not. Also, it's dependent on the weight of the gun. I love my little M7, 7 lbs with scope. My SIL has a .308 with a 26" fluted bull barrel that has to be 2.5 - 3 lbs heavier, like shooting a .22 by comparison. What makes the .308 desirable to me is the gun it's chambered in, not so much the raw ballistics. It'll kill deer or hogs just as dead as my 7 mag, why want more? The GUN, however, is short and handy in a box blind, doesn't bang on things as I move it into position, it's quick to the shoulder when still hunting, it's light to carry all day in rough country, but ready for that 300 yard + shot if needed with 3/4 MOA accuracy. I carried that 7 mag all over the Guadalupe mountains in my younger days. It gets old fast. I haven't been back out there in a while. I'm not sure I could carry myself, let alone the gun, too, at my age. LOL!

Reloading (now this is personal reflection being a 30-06 hunter/reloader)
I bought the 06 for flexibility (one gun fits all) so I could reload up and down the scale, light and fast for plains animals, slow and heavy for the animals confined to heavy brush.

I bought a 7 mag when I was lookin' at 280s. I figured if I didn't like it in max power form, I could load it down to match the 280. Like you, I stuck with...well, 2 loads, a 160 partition for heavy stuff and a 150 Sierra Game King for lighter. Recoil was a non-issue with me and the max power of the 7 makes it effective way out there with bullets of good BC. I have my .308 and my .257 Roberts and the big 7 sits in the safe. But, if I ever get to go Nilgai or Elk hunting......

 

[Cranky CJ]

If felt recoil isn't a factor, pick the -06. The .308 offers nothing ballistic wise over an -06. On the other hand, if you really want to make 400 yard shots on elk, and felt recoil still isn't a factor, go for a 7mm Mag, 300WSM, 300mag, 270WSM or 7mmWSM.

The drop at 400 yds for both the -06 and .308 isn't something you'd want to mess with. Of course this is all just my opinion.

 

[Kachok]

Remember, in damage like the op's photo....
It isn't the bullet thats directly responsible for all that damage.

It's the secondary "missles" or projectiles caused by bullet impact to bone. The bone becomes secondary projectiles and "cut" out tissue as it's ejected the way you see.

Sierra's expand with a wide mushroom. The 165 has high kinetic energy and when applied to bone, the resulting wound is created...

Ergo, a cast bullet with similar energy or a monolithic like a Barnes bullet will expand with a narrower mushroom and cause fewer/smaller secondary projectiles with a much narrower permanant wound channel.
In my experience, the 7mmRemMag is the WORST at this. But the .300WinMag and such with 150-165gr bullets routinely do this...
Again, just my experience from seeing dozens to hundreds of whitetail deer a day, shot with centerfires from .22Hornet to .458winmag, not to mention 20ga to 10ga shotguns and .40-.72cal muzzle loaders over 20+years... (not to mention those "poached" with a .22rf).
To avoid any meat loss, shoot them in the head with a .22-250, .243, or such. An '06 to the body has the potential to cause meat loss.... no getting around it. But, you WILL recover your deer with a solid hit.... Hence it's still popular after 100yrs....

The Barnes actually has one of the widest expanded diameter (for the caliber of course) of any bullet, seen several textbook 2.5x original diameter, but they create no fragmentation so you don't get the shotgun pattern of jacket/lead in the far side rib case like you do with some quicker expanding lead core bullet, that partial fragmentation is a highly effective tool for making wide wounds with small calibers, but in the case of a 30-06 it is simply excessive, even when no bone is struck that SGK load leaves fist sized or larger holes.
My bro had finally agreed that we need to step down the 06 if we are going to keep using it for meat hunting, going to try out 150gr Speer BTSP and Barnes TTSX, the rather soft Speer should dump a bit more of it's energy in the vitals not not out the far side shoulder, and the TTSX should make for a cleaner cutting wound canal and expend the rest of that 30-06 energy in the ground, too very different approaches to cut down on coyote meat.

 

[Southernsorrow]

for deer you'd probably do better with .270.... 30-06 leaves a mess it's about as readily findable as the others ".308 is currently sold out evvverywhere I look" but you can find a box of high dollar hunting rounds in .270 and 30-06 here n there

 

[Southernsorrow]

30-06 was originally made for taking down humans I think? the .45 handgun rounds since the wild west days and 30 cal bullets been heavily killing since world war 2

 

[savanahsdad]

I've lost count of how many times I've heard "the 30/06 has been around for over 100 years !" .. well with that kind of thinking a guy should go find a car with a crank sticking out the front of it and never worry about another starter, , or if your just looking for an old cartridge try a 45-70, been around a whole lot longer and has killed everything in North America, with the 308 and the 30/06 being so close , one could just flip a coin, that is as far as the round go's ,but as far as the guns go... 308= lighter, shorter,.......

oh and up here in the north woods ,we have lots of 308 sitting on the shelf, at Fleet Farm, Walmart, Dunman's and 2 of the 3 gun shops (not sure about the 3rd, I wouldn't call them to tell them there shop was on fire)

 

[Kachok]

You know if we went down the long list of ideals by modern standards the 30-06 has some glaring flaws, too long, too shallow a shoulder, too much gun until it is not enough, not as efficient as the 308.....etc. Alas it is one of my favorites despite it's imperfections, VERY easy to work up loads for, shoots flat enough, and sure hits hard enough, oh and I never ever ever have to buy brass, I have so many people give me 06 brass I could shoot three barrels out of that rifle and still be going strong. My 06 likes heavier bullets more, my 308 likes lighter bullets more, I like heavier bullets more so I tend to prefer the 06, but for deer hunting I would be just as happy with my 150gr in my 308 it is also very accurate.

 

[JShirley]

Bullet construction.

 

[chas08]

I've lost count of how many times I've heard "the 30/06 has been around for over 100 years !" .. well with that kind of thinking a guy should go find a car with a crank sticking out the front of it and never worry about another starter, , or if your just looking for an old cartridge try a 45-70,

LOL! I got one of those too! 45/70 that is, hard to kill a Deer with a car crank!...lol.
Remember: "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

 

[CB900F]

Fella's;

And there we have it. Bullet construction means at least as much as whatever cartridge flings it out the barrel. And, if the ought-6 & the 308 are loaded to the same velocity, then the only meaningful variable would be bullet construction.

And, while I'm at it, lets take up the previous comment concerning the ought-6 and cars that are hand-cranked to start. The reason the ought-6 has been around, in widespread use I might add, for over a hundred years is that it works so well. As soon as Mr. Kettering introduced the electric starter to the automotive industry, the hand crank was shown the door. Much like the .32 Ideal.

900F

 

[CraigC]

Up to and including 180gr, the .30-06 holds no advantage over the .308, unless you like more recoil and a heavier rifle. Over 180gr and you probably need something bigger than the `06 anyway. IMHO, some folks can't look past the popularity contest.

 

[Kachok]

Craig I handload both 308 and 30-06, I can push 100fps higher speeds in the 06 in heavier weights. Now with a 150gr you would in fact be hard pressed to find a difference.

 

[TexAg]

To reiterate an above point: my local Wal-Mart (west of Ft. Worth) had three boxes of .30-06, one box of .243, one of .300 Win Mag, and one box of .270 yesterday. Made me glad to have an '06 in the safe. Nice to know for whatever reason ammo is still available for it.

 

[savanahsdad]

LOL! I got one of those too! 45/70 that is, hard to kill a Deer with a car crank!...lol.
Remember: "If it ain't broke don't fix it"

[hard too kill a deer with a car crank ????? ] not if you are driving IT !!!! lol....

 

[Inebriated]

I prefer .30-06 myself. Can push the same weight bullets just a little faster, you have the option for the heavier 220gr bullets, and to be honest, I've never really had too soft a spot for .308 anyway.

They tend to perform about the same on most game. For larger game, obviously .30-06's heavier loads are preferable. But not as preferable as going with a magnum cartridge. So... I guess what I'm getting at is 6 of one, half-a-dozen of the other. The real differences aren't really that great.