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.357 mag vs. 1911. Suggestions for carry ammo.

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peanutlover

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Apr 28, 2005
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Hello all. I currently carry a S/A 1911 full-size Milspec in .45 ACP.

My friend has a very tasty S&W Model 27 (.357 mag) with 5" barrel in perfect, almost original condition.

If I buy his 27 and carry it, how much firepower am I equipped with compared to my 1911? I realize I'll only have 6 rounds (maybe plus a couple speedloaders.)

I know nothing about carry rounds for the .357 mag. Currently I carry 230 grain JHP for my 1911.

Thanks in advance for your responses.
 
I've the luck to own both 3" 357 magnum K-frames and Commander size 1911-pattern pistols. I carry both, but have come to prefer the K-frame wheelguns.

For 357 magnum work, I am partial to JHP in the 145-158-grain range. If I want to go lighter, I can always use the "FBI Load", a 158-grain LSWC-HP +P loaded in 38 special. I have developed a preference for the Safariland "push-type" speedloaders.

You are going to find the cylinder bulge on that N-frame to be bulkier than your 1911 by a good margin. The longer tube will also make for difficulty in hiding the piece on your beltline with a covering garment.

If I am doing 1911 carriage, I go with 230-grain JHP.
 
I see little merit in the fad favoring light and fast .356 loads in the 125 grain range. The round is simply too light and has a horribly low SD. To really shine you have to give the original magnum its sectional density. 145, 158 and even some of the HP 180 grainers are generally good choices and will deliver far more devestating blows than a .45 ACP.
 
N frames are too heavy for me to carry. Then again, so are full size 1911s. That's a big piece of iron to lug around, in either case.
 
I carry a S&W model 28 (N-frame .357 like yours) loaded with 180gr Black Talons. I also have 2 speedloaders filled with 158gr Hydra-shoks.

I just like the heavier bullets.

Carrying the big revolver really isn't all that bad. You just have to make certain choices about your style. Bare-midriff shirts are right out ;) .

I have a belt slide holster for use with a jacket and an inside the pants holster for t-shirt weather. Sure, it's heavy, but that's what a good belt is for. With light shirts, my only concern is the printing caused by the grips. If I keep it under my arm instead of back at the kidney, that's not much of a problem.
 
Buying the M27, if it's in good mechanical condition is a good choice. To learn more about this gun, try here; www.smith-wessonforum.com

In a good holster the N frames are not too difficult to carry. Though open carry is a lot easier with one. The biggest drawback to the N frames for concealed carry is the square butt. While it is easy to change out the stocks for a slimmer more ergonomic set the round butt versions are the easier to pack discreetly.

tipoc
 
Read the book handgun stopping power by Ed Sanow and Evan Marshall. They use actual shooting data. Acording to them the best load for the 357 is a 125 Grain Federal JHP Or the Classic Ammo. It is suppose to have around a 95% 1 shot stop By the way a 357 with this load is the #1 stopping combination.
 
Don't bring M/S up again!:what: :rolleyes:

I like the 125JHP in .357. It's a proven round. I don't like heavy bullets in this caliber, over-penetration. If you wanna go to prison for what your bullet does down the street, fine, but I prefer a lighter JHP and the 125 has proven itself. You're shooting humans here, not bears. Save the heavy stuff for the woods and hunting.

The N frame is a might too heavy as is steel full size 1911s for me, too. I ain't luggin' something like that around all day and the revolver, unlike the 1911, isn't that easy to conceal IWB either. Largest I'd even consider is K frames.
 
+1 to Cosmoline

I too like the heavier .357mag loads.

My SD preferred is the the 158gr semi jacketed lead hp by Remington. Has the cute little scalloped jacket, very stylish... :D

Also, the over penetration arguement is over-rated imo.
 
Also, the over penetration argument is over-rated imo.

I'm not sure about other states, but in Texas, you're responsible for where your bullet goes and what it does after it leaves the barrel, criminally liable in fact. In a city, lots of people, over-penetration is not desirable to me and that's likely where I'm going to have to use a firearm if it happens, some Luby's cafeteria or something. A 158 SWC will penetrate a LOT of flesh, completely through both shoulders and chest of a white tail deer, for instance. I know, I've done it.

Besides, the 125 grain JHP has a fantastic track record in law enforcement. But, I don't think you're under-gunned as far as load goes with ANY .357 loading, even the 110 grain stuff. I just like the traditional 125 grain JHP for its performance on human flesh. Don't know of a load that's more well documented for self defense in the gun and it has never been known for failures if properly placed.
 
One thing that may be worth considering...I can attest that lighting off a .357round without hearing protection is not just loud...it is physically painful. My ear rang for the rest of the day after firing only one shot and that was on an outdoor range with no walls or roof! I can't imagine how loud it would be from inside a car or any other enclosed space.

The .357 also has a much greater muzzle flash than your bacis 5" 1911
 
Just had to say from a purely emotional perspective...owning BOTH a 1911 AND a sweet five-inch Model 27...WOW...you just might have arrived, my friend!!!

I agree with what some posters have said...I don't think you're giving up much if anything moving from a 1911 to a six-shot .357. I usually pack 230-gr JHPs in my 1911, too, but would probably opt for 110-grain JHPs in my Smith & Wesson Model 19 .357...of course, that's a K-Frame compared to the N-Frame you're talking about...the 19 can certainly handle 125-grainers and beyond, but the 110s just feel "right" to me out of mine.
 
One thing that may be worth considering...I can attest that lighting off a .357round without hearing protection is not just loud...it is physically painful. My ear rang for the rest of the day after firing only one shot and that was on an outdoor range with no walls or roof! I can't imagine how loud it would be from inside a car or any other enclosed space.

The .357 also has a much greater muzzle flash than your bacis 5" 1911

Yeah, that's why I'm not to hot on the magnum for home defense, unless you keep your game ears or some other hearing protection near you bed. I don't know if I'd be alert enough if awakened by bumps in the night to remember the hearing protection. I keep a .38 handy. Even that is pretty bad indoors, but not like a short barreled magnum.:eek:

I've fired the magnum outdoors (hunting) and it didn't hurt me, but I must admit it had a 6 1/2" barrel. I've never tried a snubbie outdoors without hearing protection and don't think I want to.:D

The auto pistol rounds have a pretty sharp report, too, but in a snubbie, that mangnum doesn't burn a lot of its slow burning powder inside the barrel. Lots of it gets burnt outside the barrel. The flash/bang wouldn't be nice in my living room, lights out, 2AM.
 
Count me amoung those who use 38+P for indoor use when using my .357s. For .45 if it is a full size gun 230 grain if a smaller gun 185+P.

Chris
 
Probably the best .357 Magnum carry round going (probably the best regardless of calibre) is the 145-grain Silvertip.

Recoil shouldn't be a problem with a five-inch N-frame. As others have pointed out it's not exactly petite. I have no problem carrying (very comfortably, I might add) and concealing a five-inch M27 (in a CABO holster if you're interested).

The 125-grain SJHPs a couple of people are the worst offenders by far when it comes to muzzle blast (and yes, they are too light). Muzzle flash is function of the powder not of calibre--it's amazing how many people who post on these boards do not grasp that.
 
MCgunner, yes, everyone, I believe, is responsible for what their bullet does after it leaves the gun. No arguement there. Keep in mind, that also includes misses, so using that reasoning, one might be better off not even firing, from a legal standpoint.

Sure, your hunting round have gone through a deer, but that's what they are; hunting rounds. Comparing the penetration characteristics of a semi-wadcutter to those of a jacketed hollowpoint isn't exactly apples to apples. I am using controlled expansion rounds and the very popular Hydrashoks. They are designed from the get-go to be a differently performing round. Part of the reason that Black Talons are no longer available for the civilian market was the fact that the sharp edges made it difficult for ER doctors to remove the slugs without cutting themselves. The rounds didn't overpenetrate and stayed in the body.

The whole point of carrying a magnum is the power, but anything can over penetrate. Carrying SWC or FMJ in anything is a risk. Shoot someone in the neck with a 9mm FMJ and you're gonna get some overpenetration. But then again, that's a maybe, too. There was a soldier in Iraq who was shot in the face with a 9mm at close range, and his tooth saved him. He even charged and captured his assailant. Had it been a 158gr or 180gr .357, I think the story would have been different. http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/teeth.asp

Recently, there has been the story of the civilian assisting an officer struggling with an assailant. The civi dumped several .45 acp rounds into the body of the perp, but did not even slow him down until he placed a round in his head.

There are different rounds for different applications, for different folks, etc, etc. If everyone went purely on statistics and nothing else, we'd all be carrying the same gun with the same round. Maybe even Glaser rounds! I'll trust you to carry what you are comfortable with, and I'll carry what I am comfortable will do the job I intend it to do.
 
Darkness,

Way I look at it, if I'm shooting a 180 grain load, I'm increasing my chances of collateral damage by adding the over-penetration to any misses. I shoot a 180 grain load in my Blackhawk, makin' 785 ft lbs. I think that load is excessive for human targets and would penetrate four or five humans. It ain't no 350 ft lbs 9mm ball load, that's for sure! And, one shooting don't make a trend, either. Strange things have happened. .22s have killed people from a mile away.

Carry what you want. Personally, I don't carry the .357. I'm usually loaded with .38 +P 140 JHP or 9mm +P 115 JHP. Just adding my concerns of over-penetration to the fellow who asked about carry loads. He can weigh my opinion in with yours and everyone elses I reckon. I think the 125 JHP is the best of the best .357 loads. But, then, I read the statistics, too. This was the standard load of most departments who carried the round in the 70s and 80s. It had a good track record.

For Peanutlover, I think I said it already, but the 1911 is a lot easier gun to carry than a N frame. Between the two and knowing all the effective loads in .45ACP to choose from, I'd carry the .45. I'd RATHER carry something lighter, but between the two choices.....:D I think you'll probably figure that out on your own, though, once you carry the gun all day. That's a hunk a metal, there. LOL! I wouldn't worry about power with the .357, it's more gun than a .45 with ANY magnum level load. But, the .45 is plenty and the platform is a lot easier to tote.

Just My Ever So Humble Opinions. Take it for what it cost you.

:D
 
I am not here to start an arguement either, just giving my opinion as well. Statistics are nice, but heck, you can prove just about anything with statistics. Just look at what the anti-gun crowd does with them. If you don't gather the data yourself, you are always left with what the statistician wants you to see.

I am a fan of the .45 as well, so my opinion, is still carry what you're comfortable with.

Here's a decent short read for interested folks, btw:

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/other/jh_45acp.htm

I kinda like where he says;
While it is difficult, you can make a .45 an inefficient performer. You do this by lightening the bullet and increasing the velocity. While some 185 gr. .45’s, reportedly, are well constructed and give fairly consistent penetration, some are not. I have had 185 gr. Winchester Silver-Tips fail to penetrate 8 pound ground hogs – this is not confidence inspiring.


Wait a minute, is he saying you can actually reduce a caliber's effectiveness by lightening the slug and increasing the velocity? :eek:
 
People need to worry less about overpenetration and worry more about missing. A hollowpoint that penetrates 18" in jello will exit at about 100-150 fps on a front-to-back torso shot. About 16" and less won't exit. Threshold for skin penetration is about 150 fps. So as long as you stick with something that meets the FBI's guidelines for penetration (12" to 18"), overpenetration is a non-issue, won't do anything more than leave a nasty bruise on a bystander. Unless you miss. Or if you only hit an arm or a leg on your intended target, which is just as good as missing.
 
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