.357 Magnum self defence ammo - unfullfilled potential?

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I guess I'm in the minority when the question turns to .357 ammo. I like heavier lead bullets at less frantic velocities. The 125 "nuke" borders on all but uncontrollable in the 3-inch Model 13 that I like, and besides the recoil being punishing with the original Magna stocks that I also prefer...add the flash that'll leave you as blind as a bat in low or no light...and the concussion coming off the end of the barrel is enough to cause me to leave it alone.

What I'd like to see is a lead SWC hollowpoint loaded with a quicker powder to cut down on blast and flash to an honest 1,050 fps from a 4-inch revolver barrel. That would even beat the highly regarded +P.38 LSWGHP's advertised velocity of 940 fps from a 3-inch barrel...which I've never seen on a chrono readout even from a 4-inch .38 Special revolver, which the questionable Marshal and Sanow book rates at 75%. At the higher velocities, it should run to 80-85% in the real world and it wouldn't beat up the gun or the shooter so much. Effective. Less flinch. Faster followup shots.

But, they didn't consult with me, so I have to rely on my own home-rolled stuff with Unique and Speer's excellent lead SWCHP bullet.

I know. Reloads are a no-no. I'll take my chances.
 
But, they didn't consult with me, so I have to rely on my own home-rolled stuff with Unique and Speer's excellent lead SWCHP bullet.

I know. Reloads are a no-no. I'll take my chances.
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See, THIS is the answer! I prefer a heavier bullet in .357 because it performs better out of my 2" barrel carry. I've found the 140 grain Speer JHP both VERY accurate and performs much better than 125 grain stuff out of short barrels. So, I roll my own. I trust my loads more'n factory now days, anyhow. Maybe now that supply is catching up, they'll get back to some QC at the factories.
 
1911Tuner
I also have some "home-rolled stuff with Unique and Speer's excellent lead SWCHP bullet" loaded up.
Have you done, or do you know of any, expansion tests done with this bullet? I have not. I always figured that, at worst, it will behave like a SWC. If it expands, all the better.
 
I might try those lead SWCHPs out. I've been loading 158 grain JHPs in my .38 to +P levels with Unique. I was using jacketed bullets early on in my Taurus M85UL because it was leading with cast bullets, but over the years the bore seems to have lapped itself because my WC loads and 158 SWCs over 5.0 grains Unique don't lead it up anymore. :D

I tried a Lee mold with a cast SWCHP, wasn't accurate for squat in any of my .38s and .357s, so I gave up on it and gave the mold away. That happens. That's one reason I like Lee molds, cheap so if they don't work, no big loss. :D Plus, I have some very good Lee molds I've been casting with for nearly 40 years. They do hold up fine.
 
Posted by MCgunner: Dr. Michael Courtney's research shows, ... that the .357 magnum makes enough energy to affect tissue with the ballistic pressure wave. Courtney says that 500 ft lbs is a rough threshold.
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The way I read his work, Courtney concluded that a dynamic pressure wave measuring 500 PSI could incapacitate, and that one measuring 1000 PSI probably will.

You can argue with me with your Facklerite fantasies all you want, but Fackler was a coroner, no more.
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Dr. Fackler was the Director of the Wound Ballistics Laboratory of the Letterman Army Institute of Research at the Presidio of San Francisco. CA. We are talking about wounding here.

But, I don't discount the ballistic pressure wave made by the energy transfer of the bullet.
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Neither do I, when it comes to high powered rifles on game.

I, too, once regarded what we then erroneously referred to as "hydrostatic pressure" as important in handguns, but in service handguns, it is simply not a material factor. It is not a good idea to confuse boom and blast and recoil with wounding effectiveness.

It is for this reason I prefer the .357 magnum to the .38. I do, however, feel the .38 is adequate for self defense.
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Think about it: why would one .357 inch dia. bullet with kinetic energy sufficient to penetrate only 12 inches in soft tissue create a dynamic pressure wave of greater magnitude than another one with the same construction and penetration? The headstamp on the case---Magnum vs Super Auto vs Special +P--is irrelevant. To create any kind of dynamic pressure wave worth considering, a bullet of that diameter would have to be so fast that it would pass completely through a human target.

In Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, Agent Patrick Urey summarizes the findings of several others. Here are some salient points:
  • The amount of kinetic energy lost in tissue by a pistol bullet is insufficient to cause remote energy produced by a rifle bullet (D. Maio V.J.M)
  • ...factors such as energy deposit, momentum transfer, size of temporary cavity...are irrelevant.
  • Kinetic energy does not wound [(that was stated in the context of findings regarding the various kinds of handguns used in law enforcement; the .357 Magnum has been on that list for around eight decades)]
  • While penetration up to 18 inches is preferable, a handgun bullet must reliably penetrate 12 inches of soft tissue.

The report is dated, in that bullet expansion performance has advanced significantly since it was published, and some of the comments about reliable expansion are probably not longer true. But everything else remains valid.

Among "everything else" is the discussion of how physiological stops occur. The human body is simply not a homogenous organism, like a water jug or a block of ballistic gelatin. What matters is what vital functions are impaired. That has to do with what within the body is damaged, which in turn depends primarily on two things: point and angle of impact, and penetration. Massad Ayoob recommends that everyone have a copy of Gray's Anatomy. A quick thumb-through makes it crystal clear that there are an awful lot of places that bullets may hit that are most unlikely to stop an attacker except through psychological means.

Since none of us have both x-ray vision and ready recall of the human anatomy, the first of those will be a matter of chance. And more hits mean a higher chance. Marksmanship alone does not. That essentially means that less redial is more important than higher oomph, if penetration is adequate. Terminal ballistics is just one part of the equation; as long as penetration is adequate, it all comes down to what parts of the body the bullets damage, though larger bullets will have something of an edge on smaller ones.

Heavier vs lighter bullet? I tend to favor heavier over lighter, but I carry a 9MM.
 
In many of the ballistics gel tests tests I've seen, those with FBI protocol used and those without, the 125 grain .357 magnum SJHP loads all seem to do well from 4" barrels.

Often times, the semi-jacketed hollowpoint expands fully and actually starts to shed lead fragments. With other rounds this can be an issue, those with less energy or lighter bullets etc. etc. and can lead to under-penetration. However, with these magnum loads the solid bullet core still manages to penetrate beyone 12" most of the time. So, you get a great deal of energy released into this wound track due to the energy dump from the fragmenting hollow point cavity, but still get good penetration from the solid core.

I attribute this due to this load having about 580+ ft lbs of muzzle energy when fired from 4" barrels. These rounds have the energy to produce the above effects, while other calibers and loads may not.

This combined with the "shock and awe" of these loads where they produce a loud and bright flash could have a physiological effect on the target. This is only conjecture though.
 
The way I read his work, Courtney concluded that a dynamic pressure wave measuring 500 PSI could incapacitate, and that one measuring 1000 PSI probably will.
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You originally asked me why i prefer the .357 instead of a .38. Well, you just answered your own question.

I've seen obvious tissue damage remote from the wound channel from .357s fired on deer and hogs at handgun velocities. Well, the deer was shot with a rifle at 80 yards by which time the bullet was down to revolver velocities. The hogs were all, but 1 shot in a trap at close range. The one was shot at 17 yards with a 3" carry. I was walking out to check the trap and not carrying a hunting arm, target of opportunity. This is my experience.

There are crush cavity folks that will argue til the cows come home that a 7mm Remington Magnum only kills by penetration and crush cavity. Seen 'em yap on the hunting board. I get tired of arguing with folks like that using my own bang/flop and personal autopsy experiences. I just let folks be the experts and I'll understand things how I experience them, not by word of mouth on the internet and quoting their favorite expert because he believes in the .45ACP and supports big bullet at low velocity vs high velocity pop guns like the .357 magnum. In their world, the .45ACP is more effective on ANYthing than the .44 magnum because the bullet is 0.022" larger in diameter. Okay, I give up, you're right! :rolleyes: But, my experiences are personally explained by much of Courtney's work, not Fackler's.

I swear this subject brings out the ire in folks worse than the Glock vs 1911 or the 9 vs .45 threads ever did.
 
In many of the ballistics gel tests tests I've seen, those with FBI protocol used and those without, the 125 grain .357 magnum SJHP loads all seem to do well from 4" barrels.

Often times, the semi-jacketed hollowpoint expands fully and actually starts to shed lead fragments. With other rounds this can be an issue, those with less energy or lighter bullets etc. etc. and can lead to under-penetration. However, with these magnum loads the solid bullet core still manages to penetrate beyone 12" most of the time. So, you get a great deal of energy released into this wound track due to the energy dump from the fragmenting hollow point cavity, but still get good penetration from the solid core.

I attribute this due to this load having about 580+ ft lbs of muzzle energy when fired from 4" barrels. These rounds have the energy to produce the above effects, while other calibers and loads may not.
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Yes, this is my point of using heavier bullets than 125 in short barreled guns. I couldn't get more'n about 380 ft lbs from a 125 grain bullet in a 2" SP101 using 2400 which works marvelously in 4 and 6" guns. The heavier bullet seems to trap more of the pressure peak from the round. Just going to 140 grains gives me 552 ft lbs from the 605 Poly and the SP101 is about the same. In this vein, a 180 grain bullet is pushing 660 ft lbs in the SP101, but I don't think I'd go to that load if I were to find a 180 grain bullet, as the OP says, that was for CCW rather than shooting big game. The recoil is more even if the flash/bang is tamer and the bullet shoots WAY high in my little Taurus. I don't know that the gun is up to much punishment with that load, either, which I developed for hunting in my Blackhawk.

So, I stick with my 140 grain load which shoots to POA and live happy. :D I really CAN see the value in the OP's desire for a heavier bullet, but for reasons of short barrel guns. I think one might work FANTASTIC in my 3" M66 seeing as I could regulate the rear sight for the load and, the gun being heavier, would be much easier to shoot than in a 20 ounce snubby. Most fixed sight guns are going to shoot high with a heavy bullet like that, though, in my experience.
 
Since my only .357 revolver at the moment is a K-frame, I'm definitely interested in heavier bullets vs. the 125gr. variety. The risk of cracking a forcing cone may be over or under stated, but I just don't want to risk it. And I certainly don't need all that blast!

I also think that heavy bullets are a strong point of shooting revolvers, and with modern bullet designs, I think the push for more velocity might be easing a bit. Good example being the new G2 Gold Dot design. 147 gr 9mm, standard pressure.

What I'd like to see, but haven't found yet, is how the Hornady XTP 158 gr. .357 performs out of short barrels. The 140 gr. FTX's seem to be built for rifles, every report I've seen so far has said little to no expansion out of revolvers. I've heard the 125 gr. "-P" choices like Golden Saber are good, but no luck finding them in my neck of the woods so far!
 
Since my only .357 revolver at the moment is a K-frame, I'm definitely interested in heavier bullets vs. the 125gr. variety. The risk of cracking a forcing cone may be over or under stated, but I just don't want to risk it. And I certainly don't need all that blast!
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A legit worry IMHO. My M10 cracked a forcing cone and that's just .38s! A bit of lead build up in the rear of the barrel is what I think caused it. That's a fragile area on the K frames.
 
Sounds like "Item A" is what you're looking for!
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Nope. I want it in a .357 case.

Load a given bullet to identical velocity in .38 and .357 cases...then shoot the .38 in a .357 chamber...and you'll lose quite a bit of velocity from the jump to the chamber throat. Experimentation has borne this out.

I also have some "home-rolled stuff with Unique and Speer's excellent lead SWCHP bullet" loaded up.
Have you done, or do you know of any, expansion tests done with this bullet?
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I have. It does a classic mushroom in gelatin from 900-1100 fps impact velocity. Much below 900 and it does little more than turn into a full wadcutter...which isn't altogether bad...but I'd prefer that it reach its full potential. Much more than 1100 and it opens rapidly, but sheds its mushroom and quite a bit of its mass.

Of course, all that would change with a harder or softer bullet. Speer's alloy seems to be just about right, falling somewhere between the Winchester and the Remington offerings in their .38+P LSWCHP. At the loaded velocities...which run pretty close...the Remington bullet expands better with adequate penetration. Winchester's bullet is apparently bit harder, and doesn't do as well...but it penetrates from here to breakfast.

Neither one met the advertised 940 fps velocity. From my 4-inch Model 10, they averaged nearly a hundred fps less.
 
I find these tests below extremely interesting. We're 14 years into 21st century, with all these modern and expensive bullet designs... Yet old-as-hell LSWCHP bullet apparently still performs on par or better than all these fancy .38 Special +P JHPs "designed for short barrels", "special defense" etc. loads (f.e. Gold Dot .38 Special +P 125gr fails to penetrate in such tests: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8ENAbgq5bY )

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/06/remington-38-special-p-158-grain-lhp.html


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPrw3B-8HjE

A bit higher speed, a bit higher expansion, basically same penetration.


These 2 look like almost perfect short barrel loads.
However, 12,1-12,5" penetration is a bit too little.
Now, with the same expansion and a bit higher velocity... it looks like 158gr@1100fps would be perfect.
 
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Ahhh...did you happen to look at their test guns?

S&W mod. 60, 2 inch- 1040 fps (379 ft. lbs.)
S&W mod. 66, 2.5 inch- 1059 fps (393 ft. lbs.)
Ruger SP101, 3 inch- 1143 fps (458 ft. lbs.)
S&W Mt. Gun, 4 inch- 1162 fps (474 ft. lbs.)

Again, seems to be pretty much what you're looking for.
 
There is a huge potential for the 357 just with teh 125gr bullets. Nothing else is needed. Also this is drastically improved when shot from 14-15 rounds magazines like the glock. It is called the 357SIG running at original full power.
It effectively replicates the performance of the 357 magnum from barrels of 4.5, 5 and 6 inches.
Lots of firepower in a little package. one of the several reasons it is the secret service choice.
 
@Tortuga12 Well, I think the numbers you quote are for a bit hotter load, but indeed, it's, along with Remington's .357 Magnum 158gr SJHP, an interesting load.
180gr load MAY be even better, cause it can carry higher momentum and similiar energy at a bit lower velocity.

Now, the discussion about penetration actually got me interested... and I started looking for some meat tests, just to compare the gel penetration with what may happen when something resembling "real body" is hit.
And this one got me thinking:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2JMWrnW608

SEVEN inches of penetration before bullet got stopped by a bone.
Yes, it was seven inches of COLD, dead muscle and then a tough bone (and warm, living body behaves a bit differently), but it just shows how far can gel penetration differ from meat and bone penetration.
So, is really 12" adequate?
Maybe.
But a bit more may be better.
 
That's just the thing though. That load is rated at .38 +P!

Now, I'm sure it's on the bleeding edge of that designation, but the fact is that if you believe that they use real test guns like they claim (and I tend to), that load, and the SWC Outdoorsman load both perform like .38/44 or low level .357 loads.

I've shot the Outdoorsman load out of a model 15, and while you could tell it was hot, there were no signs of overpressure. Other than the case being slightly short (which would only help with a reload if neccessary), it would seem like it's exactly the load 1911Tuner was looking for.

I just want to know what kind of powder they use to make this happen! I think the .38/44 loading is just about perfect in my 2.5" 19-5, and would love to replicate it with handloads. Oh well, I'm sure someday when I'm old and gray 2400 will be available again!
 
Indeed it seems to be the same load. And it indeed looks like a v. interesting load for short barreled guns and HD.
So it seems that 158gr bullets can perform nicely. And this means that with the additional momentum pushing the bullet we can get even more expansion while keeping the penetration above FBI minimum - wonder what would 180gr SD load at similiar velocities be capable of. Federal .45 ACP 230gr HST at 900fps expands to around .8 inch and penetrates over 13" of gel.
180gr .357 Magnum at 1120 fps has roughly the same momentum (ok, 2,7% less :) ) and way more energy, and with modern bullet designs .7" of expansion doesn't really sound impossible.
 
Posted by MCgunner: There are crush cavity folks that will argue til the cows come home that a 7mm Remington Magnum only kills by penetration and crush cavity. Seen 'em yap on the hunting board.
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If you say so, and of course there were the Parker O. Ackley/Elmer Keith debates about big bullets vs high velocity, but no one in his right mind would deny that, with really high velocity projectiles (think Weatherby Magnums, for example), dynamic pressure waves are an important part of what make bullets do what they do.

The question is all about the energy range within in which that phenomenon is effective and relevant.

I just let folks be the experts and I'll understand things how I experience them, not by word of mouth on the internet and quoting their favorite expert....
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I really would not characterize the findings summarized by FBI Agent Urey in Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness as "word of mouth on the internet".

But, my experiences are personally explained by much of Courtney's work, not Fackler's.
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Alrighty then. But one person's anecdotal observations do not constitute scientific findings.

Courtney's reports are very intriguing; they were published recently, and there has been little time for them to be discussed and debated among his peers or others.

I have not done any kind of fluid dynamics analysis myself since early 1967. One thing I do remember (this from researchers in the Fluids Department who were working on artificial hearts) is that neither human flesh, though composed of a lot of water, nor blood, behaves like real fluids in the real world; the modeling problem was very difficult indeed.

Without trying to go into that in depth, and today it is way above my head, I might opine, with tongue in cheek, that I would be inclined to pay more attention to the findings of surgeons and coroners than to those of theoretical physicists.

Here's the hard nut to crack, for me anyway: when one is discussing the shooting of a standing or running human being, even sideways and through an arm, as opposed to a rear angling shot on an elk, there is only so much target to be penetrated.

To get more effect from a percussive dynamic pressure wave, one must have more kinetic energy. And more kinetic energy, all other things being equal, means more penetration. And there is only so much penetration to be had.

I am not convinced.

But that does not matter. If I cannot control a firearm well enough to achieve combat accuracy at a rate or tow or three shots per second, I will not choose that firearm for self defense.

I have a couple of .357 magnum revolvers, but with Magnum loads, they do not meet that requirement in my hands.

As I have mentioned, I carry a 9MM sem-iauto.

Now, when sound pressure is taken into account, a .45 ACP will likely be a better choice, at least indoors.
 
If I cannot control a firearm well enough to achieve combat accuracy at a rate or tow or three shots per second, I will not choose that firearm for self defense.
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My thoughts exactly. I have fairly large, strong hands and full-throttle .357 ammunition in what I consider to be a portable revolver...namely a 3 or 4-inch Model 13...is a bit more than a bit much. I can do better with an L or N Frame, of course...but those carry a little too much heft and bulk for concealment except maybe in the dead of Winter under a heavy coat.

In the great outdoors, where absolute concealment isn't at stake...and bigger/meaner critters than Homo Sapien Sapien lurk, I'll strap on the Model 58.
 
It would be easy for either Federal or Winchester to take the HST or Ranger "T" Series design and come up with "heavy-ish" 357 cartridges that would penetrate 4 layers of denim and 15" of ordnance gel and expand to around .66"

My guess is these rounds would perform a lot like (and probably a little better than), the best 40 S&W rounds.

The 158gr would perform a lot like a 160gr 40 S&W, the 180gr would perform a lot like the 180gr .40 S&W.

But they haven't.

Maybe because too many consumers just make a knee-jerk 125gr purchase and it would take a lot of marketing to get 125gr buyers to migrate to the heavier bullets, and both companies are already making a profit selling those 125gr cartridges anyway.
 
The US secret service as many others, who can have anything they want they stick to the 357SIG (same ballistics as 125gr 357 magnum).
If this is good for them most likely is good for many other people. It shoots flatter, it hits hard and is extremely effective.
Others are equially effective including the 45, 9mm, 40, super, etc... It is more important good training and placement than anything else. Everything else is just talking opinions and pissing in the wind arguments.
 
It would be easy for either Federal or Winchester to take the HST or Ranger "T" Series design and come up with "heavy-ish" 357 cartridges that would penetrate 4 layers of denim and 15" of ordnance gel and expand to around .66"

My guess is these rounds would perform a lot like (and probably a little better than), the best 40 S&W rounds.

The 158gr would perform a lot like a 160gr 40 S&W, the 180gr would perform a lot like the 180gr .40 S&W.

But they haven't.

Maybe because too many consumers just make a knee-jerk 125gr purchase and it would take a lot of marketing to get 125gr buyers to migrate to the heavier bullets, and both companies are already making a profit selling those 125gr cartridges anyway.
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That kind of misses the point of how capitalism works. If I have a better product (say a heavy bullet .357) and data to prove it, then I trumpet that product to the sky and out-compete my rivals.

The fact that no ammo company is doing that at the moment tells me either some ammo maker has a real opportunity to make money, or all this theorizing about heavy bullets for SD doesn't pan out in practice.
 
@Vern Humphrey:
at the moment the bullet effectiveness is mostly proven via... online tests and anecdotal evidence because there's not enough statistical data to draw any conclusions anyway, especially after LEOs stopped using revolvers.. So even if heavy .357 SD load is released there's really no sure way to tell IF such ammo is more or less effective.
 
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