.38 Special +P vs. 9X18 Makarov

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SkunkApe

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I picked up a Taurus .38 Special snubbie today, and started researching loads for concealed carry. What I found stunned me.

I have a Bulgarian Makarov in 9X18. Its my usual CCW gun. The popular opinion is that the 9X18 cartridge is a little more powerful that the .380 auto. But guess what? In terms of muzzle energy, the 9X18 is equal or superior to the .38 Special +P when fired form a 2" barrell!

Golden Loki's excellent site shows muzzle energies up to 272 fpe for the 9X18 fired form a Makarov.

http://goldenloki.com/ammo/gel/9x18/gel9x18.htm

Using the data from this article on the .38 Special +P when fired from a 2" snubbie, the best load in terms of muzzle energy is the Winchester +P 158-grain LSWCHP. I did the math, its 249 fpe.

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/pocket_dynomite/

The formula, for those interested, is energy= bullet weight X velocity squared/450400. Energy is in fpe, bullet weight is in grains, velocity is in fps.

I'm amazed. Am I the only one who didn't know the 9X18 is more powerful than the .38 Special +P?
 
But guess what? In terms of muzzle energy, the 9X18 is equal or superior to the .38 Special +P when fired form a 2" barrell!
Click to expand...
I would rather have the 158 grain bullet at +P velocity than a 95 grain bullet going 959-1135 fps.

BTW, I have heard it said that the .380 ACP is more powerful than the .38 Special out of a 2 inch barrel.
 
Foot pounds of energy (FPE) is a very small part of what makes a bullet effective--particularly handgun bullets. Depending on a number of other variables, .38 Special at 278 FPE may be (is probably?) more effective than a .44 Magnum at 741 FPE. Anybody who chooses a carry pound based strictly (or even primarily) on FPE is missing larges pieces of the big picture!
 
5 rounds of .38 Special or 9 rounds (8+1) of Makarov.

.38 out of a 2" barrel or 9 Mak out of a 4" barrel (okay, 91mm to be exact... 93mm out of a Norinco. Out of a PA-63 it's 100mm.)

Personaly, I'd rather have a 12 gage. :p
 
Interesting links.

FWIW, after considerable testing in 340PD, I settled some time back on the 125 grain +P Gold Dots keyed up in the first 3 holes (altho I had none of the Winchester 130s available at the time).

My Dad, now pushing 80, was complaining a few months back that his S&W 4" Model 66 was just a little too bulky, so I got him lined out with an extra Mak. One thing I like about the Maks is that 9X18 Silver Bear JHPs can be easily found around here for around $6 a box.

I've not had a malfunction with either of my Maks with any type of ammo and feel that Dad is just as well armed - if not better - with 8 lighter rounds in the Mak as I am with 5 heavier ones in the snub (with the last 2 being 125g Federal Classic 357s).
 
Greybeard: One thing I like about the Maks is that 9X18 Silver Bear JHPs can be easily found around here for around $6 a box.
Click to expand...

I am in the Austin area. Any suggestions for Silver Bear in my area? Denton is just a tad far to drive. I know this is a long shot and TX is big, but gun folks seem to know each other...

Thanks.
 
I'll take a snub .38 that fires a 158 gr. lead hollowpoint at 800 fps. I'll take a .380 that fires a Federal or Corbon 90 gr. JHP at 950-1000 fps. I do not know how effective the 9 X 18 is as a manstopper. I am not knocking the Makarov 9 X 18 at all. It is a very reliable weapon. For self defense purposes I do not consider it better than .38 special+P or .380 ACP.
 
"I'll take a .380 that fires a Federal or Corbon 90 gr. JHP at 950-1000 fps." -Tbeb

Corbon's 9X18 load fires a 95 grain hollowpoint at 1135 fps. Too bad its discontinued.

I'm questioning the effectiveness of the 9X18 compared to the .38 Special +P. Unquestionably the 9X18 is superior to the .380 auto. It fires bigger projectiles at a higher velocity.
 
SkunkApe,

You feel the 9 X 18 is superior to the .380 ACP for self defense. That's cool. I don't agree.

Fact, not theory, is the .380 ACP works on the streets just as well as a +P loaded snub thirty-eight. Does this mean the 9 X 18 is superior to the .38? I say no.

I say they're all equal so take your pick.
 
Mat - Yea, a small world sometimes. In fact, I'll be making a run to Austin and back tomorrow. Gonna be getting daughter back to northwest corner of UT sometime in the p.m. If ya happen to be in the area, I might can throw in a box or two and let ya try 'em. I buy 'em off the shelf at Cheaper Than Dirt showroom on north edge of Fort Worth. I've not checked, but they likely have 'em in catalog. PM me as ya see fit. I've got good cell coverage in Austin.
 
SkunkApe & tbeb - Before y'all carry on much further with the little spittin' contest, possibly a pertinent link just posted on another thread. http://greent.com/40Page/ammo/45/45-advoc.htm Despite the title, it's more than about just 45s ...

Well, The Wife tells me I'm cookin' tonight, so outta here for a while ... Y'all have at it ... :D

P.S. Note the caliber I went to for Dad. And there was also a .380 in the safe. ;)
 
I carry either a EG Mak or a S&W M-36 on my person every day. I am more accurate with the mak, possibly because I can afford to shoot it alot. The 38 will do the job when I can... I gues thats what it boils down to. If you do your job either pistol aught to do its. www.dansammo.com has the best deal in my area for 9x18 $110 shipped for HP. SOG has some 38 special for 99.00 a thousand + the shipping. I bought some and it works good for me.


Just bring one of those pistols with you all the time.

Mike
 
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SOG is www.SouthernOhioGun.com

Between the 9x18 or the 38 Special, I think it still comes down to which one you can shoot more effectively or which platform type you feel more comfortable with. I prefer pistols for carry due to their trimness and thinness. The few times I've carried the Mak (more as a gimick than anything... just showing it off) I was torn between the hard plastic Russian grips that weren't too comfortable to shoot but wouldn't catch on clothing and the Pearce grips that are much more comfortable and a bit more hand-filling, but I've never been a big fan of rubber grips for CCW. I went with the Russian Grips.

The Barnaul HPs seem to open up pretty consistantly and as long as the bad guy isn't wearing a leather jacket, two flannel shirts and a wife beater (which he surely will be ;) ) I'd have to think that the Mak is going to get in at least 6" or 8". In a longer barrel revolver such as you might carry for duty work, I'd probably rather have the 38 Special +P. Also there is a much wider range of ammunition choices with the 38 that you can match to your particular thought-up needs.
 
9x18 JHPs?

Has anyone (here or elsewhere) ever done any expansion tests of the Russian-made 9mm Mak JHPs? I wonder if they are any good.

I'm big fan of the Mak myself. My Bulgarian Mak is the most reliable semiauto pistol I've owned (compared with 2 BHPs, a CZ-85, and a Buckmark).

That being said, I bought a used S&W M-640 in .38 with a 3" barrel for carry last month. :) I will carry it loaded with 158 LSWC-HP +Ps.
 
No, you're not the only one who has noticed that the 9x18 can have better numbers than the 38s. Numbers don't always equal performance. Given that both or all three, if you count the 380, are on the bottom of the power scale, I'd base my choice on what I could shoot and carry the easiest. A Mak for me please.
 
9x18 v. .38

They're both just as good as you shoot them, same as any other handgun rounds.
 
Quote/uestion: "Has anyone (here or elsewhere) ever done any expansion tests of the Russian-made 9mm Mak JHPs? I wonder if they are any good."

Nothing very scientific here. But, I sorta go with same theory as JHPs in .45ACP: if they happen not to expand for whatever reason, then more pentration - which could possibly be more desirable anyway ...

Being a little slower and lighter than 9X19s, I think even FMJs from a Mak would be a bit less likely to just drill a through and through 9mm hole ...
 
"On paper" is just that, on paper. I haven't seen any 380 or 9x18 load that will out penetrate a 38/158 lswhp, especially in HP trim. I've always hear the 380/38 to be "about the same" ballisticly, but this is a BIG difference.
 
Dr. Rob,

You hit the nail on the head. The problem with the 9X18 is the lack of a hollowpoint that penetrates 12" or more. There is none. In fact, the popular Barnaul 95-grain HP penetrates only 7.5" in gelatin.

In 9X18, you can get hollowpoints with less than 12" of penetration, or ball with more than 20" of penetration. Nothing in between. What the 9x18 needs is a cartridge with a good hollowpoint design that achieves 12-15". Too bad it doesn't exist.
 
I just rounded up a couple of boxes of the Silver Bear 9 X18 JHPs to take to Austin shortly. I noticed they are 120 grain bullets. I've not seen specific lab tests or looked into actual fps? Anyone ???

FWIW, also noticed on a box of Wolfe FMJs, they are 109 grain - and pretty pointy. Gotta roll for now.
 
OK, now wait a minute here...

I need something explained to me.

jc2 says:

"Depending on a number of other variables, .38 Special at 278 FPE may be (is probably?) more effective than a .44 Magnum at 741 FPE."


Now, that would seem hard to believe, unless the variable you are talking about is shot placement.
 
My standard .38spl load is a 173 grain Kieth type SWC kinda hard (wheel weights chilled) , it does 850fps in 2" barrels, 900 in 3" barrels 950 in 4" barrels and almost 1050 in 6" barrels. My friend tested it with Oehler strain guage chrono before he helped me load another 1000. It uses power pistol now , I used to use red dot for similar results for 20 years. It has around 20000psi so it isn't a blue burner round. It cuts a clean 3/8" hole thru anything made of flesh and bone less than 24" thick. In a custom Colt Dick Spec. it shoots in 3" at 25 yds on my good days. In an PPC bull barrel 6" it goes less than 2". Any one can load like this or buy a Corbon equivalent. It 'pangs ' pepper popper where maks 'ping' them.
 
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