38 Special Reloading Headache

Status
Not open for further replies.
V

VWTDIGUY

Member
Joined
Apr 6, 2015
Messages
11
My Dad and I are getting into reloading, finally got all of our equipment, dies, bullets, cases, primers etc..

Everything is prepped and ready for loading, but we are stuck on charges.. We are looking for a good plinking/ practice Range loads. He shoots Various 38 Specials, A ruger, and a few different Smith and Wesson 38s, I shoot a Ruger PSS 357 Magnum, but practice with 38 Special Loads.

We have selected Hogdon Titegroup as our powder, and also have some Accurate No 2 as well a friend gave us.

For Bullets we are using X-Treme 158gr RNFP, Copper Jacketed Bullets, paying homage to our hometown.

We cannot find any loading data and get conflicting sources of what data to use.

I have dug thru countless websites and have seen anything from 3.0 to 4.0grs. but nothing that has what we have..

Was told to use HDY XTP for our data by another reloader, but another person who helped us said to use the SWC data..

Also we are using a Lee Single Stage press and have both the standard crimp, and also have the Carbide Crimp because we have not made all 1500 cases we have purchased the same size, the only ones we trimmed down were ones that exceeded the maximum case length..But all cases are within .001-.002 of each other

Can someone point us in the correct direction? Or do I return powder and go for Bullseye or Winchester 241 that I have seen some data on..

Thanks in advance, I am a complete newbie to this and am learning, and having to pass on what I learn to my dad who is just as confused as I am on this reloading data.

-Dan
 
Your bullet is actually copper plated, not a true jacket. Plating is a thin layer of copper deposited by electroplating. From the X-treme website;
Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp
Click to expand...
I like to use starting jacketed bullet data of the same weight bullet. So I would recommend using Hodgdon data for the 158 XTP from the Hodgdon website.
 
Thanks for the fast response. PO2Hammer. That gives me 3.5 Min- 4.0 Max. Which has been for the most part what I have been seeing, and the Accurate No. 2 just a bit lower at 3.4-3.8gr
 
You have, in Accurate #2, one if the best 38 special powders you could ever hope for. I use it to load Bullseye competition loads. As I load straight lead bullets my data will not be of much use to you but I will tell you this, I have generally found with 158 grain bullets I have found the best accuracy with #2 at or just below starting charge weight.

As a brand new reloader I won't recommend that you load below published minimum. Accurate arms lists a berrys played 158 grain bullet with the same data as a lead bullet if the same weight, with a start of 3.6 grains and a max of 4.0.

I load 158 grain LSWC at 3.5 grains for bullseye practice ammo and backup match ammo. It's a very accurate load and my guess is that it would work just fine in yours. To be comfortable, bump it up to 3.6 which is the minimum.
 
We have the Lyman manual, but it wasn't having the right combo of what we had. We were not sure what the RNFP bullet was equivlant to. Entering the info on various sites like Hogdon all it was giving us was the HDY XTP, and the Cast LSWC. Since both of those were either a hollow point or a Wad cutter we were not 100% sure that a 158gr regardless of there design if the numbers would be the same for loading. Everything I was reading one website would contradict the other and I had not found one that matched our setup.

Right now I can get my hands on Titegroup really easy, the Bullseye fly's off the shelf but comes in a large container way too much for our needs, Accurate No 2 is almost impossible currently. Our local range has a reloading facility and makes RBS Ammo, and thru them we can get Winchester 241 I believe it is but he buys any he can in lots to keep his line going since its a good clean powder for the Range loads.

Basically we are wanting to load a handful of each step till we can find accuracy vs recoil. My dads got a busted up shoulder and I have a condition that is wreaking havoc with my back so I'm looking for something with less recoil, 24 rounds of 357 Supper Gold Dots, 120 gr and my hands and back are done. I'll continue to use those for carry duty but want something as well that I can have fun on the range with and don't mind shooting the 38 special with my 357, since brass is near impossible to get and finding FMJs or plated is just as hard. The range will not allow any lead uncased bullet because of rules so casting our own is out.

Our local gun shops we deal with are super reliable, ones been around since the 50s and the other is owned by a very knowledgeable person that loads his own for competition , and the range like I said reloads their own for range loads and for the public to buy using the spent casings left by shooters.

Thanks again for all this info, its got us going in the right direction since we have a friend coming over later tomorrow to show us how to get some made up.
 
Double check at EVERY step! TiteGroup is a good powder but VERY easy to double charge!!!
 
We cannot find any loading data and get conflicting sources of what data to use.
Click to expand...
You went about things in the wrong order.

First you choose the bullet weight, then you find data which will give you the velocity you want, and the DATA will tell you which powder to choose
 
*Generally*, load data for a jacketed bullet of the same weight, in the same application, will be conservative for a plated bullet. You could use xtp data as a safe starting point for your plated 158gr bullets.
 
Jlr2267 said:
*Generally*, load data for a jacketed bullet of the same weight, in the same application, will be conservative for a plated bullet. You could use xtp data as a safe starting point for your plated 158gr bullets.
Click to expand...

I'm wondering were you found this information? Jacketed data will usually have a higher charge weight than lead or plated. That's the reason why most plated bullet companies tell people to use cast or mid range jacketed data for their plated bullets.
 
ljnowell said:
I'm wondering were you found this information? Jacketed data will usually have a higher charge weight than lead or plated. That's the reason why most plated bullet companies tell people to use cast or mid range jacketed data for their plated bullets.
Click to expand...
It may have a higher charge because it can be pushed harder without issues like leading, etc. For the same charge and bullet weight however, pressure will be lower for lead and plated than it is for jacketed...that's what I meant by "conservative"
 
We started with 3.5 grains of Titegroup. The person that came by and got us started said that was a good starting point so we will load 25 to 50 and head to the range to test. And go from there.

We are doing everything step by step for now, we have deprimed, sized and deburred, cleaned and polished, reprimed all 1500 cases we have. Next we belled and charged 50, placed bullets on them after double checking for double charged, and then standard crimp and set bullet, then as a final step used the carbide crimper to make sure cases were nominally sized. And no buldges left from crimping.

G.willikers we did use Hogdons site but all I got was the HDY XTP and the Cast LSWC data. At the time I was unaware of what data to use being new that I could use the XTP data for the RNFP plated bullet. Why everything was so confusing to us. I must of went to a dozen plus sites and could find little to no data on the RNFP at 158gr but could find data galore on the XTP with our powder we have.

Snyper. We went with the Titegroup because of recommendation but also because it was the easiest to get our hands on in our area. We now have info on where and how to get just about anything we want.

Thanks for the info so far and apologize for being so confused. Totally new territory for us.25 Some Years ago we loaded hunting ammo and had a set formula down, we just need to get it back to old times again.
 
Jlr2267 said:
It may have a higher charge because it can be pushed harder without issues like leading, etc. For the same charge and bullet weight however, pressure will be lower for lead and plated than it is for jacketed...that's what I meant by "conservative"
Click to expand...


Can you please cite which manual describes lower pressure with a higher charge weight with lead bullets?
 
Side note, I don't really see the point in practicing with .38s if you have a .357. The cost isn't much different, bullet is the same.


I have shots of 38s in .357s before I was reloading. I didn't really notice, but they say you get more carbon when shooting specials, since it has a bigger gap to travel.

I use bullseye for .38s. I am not to adventurous, if my manuals don't have the powder listed I figure there is a reason.
 
I have been a target shooter all my life. I know you have plated bullets and
a different powder than the target shooters all use. If you ever want a good
pure target load. The target shooters use a hollow base wadcutter or a solid
base wadcutter with 2.7 to 3.0 grains of bullseye. A can of powder lasts a
long time and the loads are very accurate with very little recoil.

Zeke
 
I don't know how long the plated bullets have been around but that was your only source of confusion. You're on the right path now that you know you can use cast lead bullet data for plated bullets.

Watch the crimp. Berry's warns about plating damage and separation if their bullets are crimped more than a minimal amount. And I'm sure this is something pretty common to any plated vs jacketed bullet. So if you can SEE any sort of inward distortion at all on the bullet it's crimped too much. The minimal sort of taper crimp to use with plated jackets will be to where the flare just closes up and the lip of the case mouth has no black line from any gap at the joint. Reflected light from a small source lamp really shows off and exaggerates any remaining flare or any excess crimp on the case and bullet. So use a good bright small source lamp to aid in inspecting for the crimp.

For the same reason of avoiding damage it's best if you can use a separate crimp die that comes after the seating die. You can do this with a factory taper crimp or just another regular combo seating and crimp die. The trick is to set out the outer barrel of the seating position die to avoid any crimp at all but so that you can still seat the bullet. Then the next die is set with the outer barrel down to just close the flare and with the seating adjustment raised well above and perhaps even removed so the bullet isn't seated down any further during the crimp operation. And be fussy with the adjustments. With the coarse outer thread size a little goes a long way.

Trying to do both steps in one die means that you risk the crimp closing up a little too much while the bullet is still being seated and that can dig in and rip the plating. Then it tends to want to separate and peel off the lead core when fired. I've seen folks complain about plating separation. I've also found the shards of the plating stuck in the targets too. But that was back before I knew about how to correctly crimp for an "almost no crimp" sort of crimp for plated jackets. I also wonder if the folks with the examples of shed plating were also doing the seat and crimp all in one go.

Where the combo seat and crimp in one die works really well is on cast lead bullets where the shape has a nice strong cannelure groove for the crimp to roll into without plowing lead off the side.

For an amount of powder to use I'd say this will be largely determined by any fixed sight guns you may have. For example I used to tune my .38Spl loads to my S&W Model 10. And I do still load 158gn cast and plated for that gun which I charge with the powder needed to produce hits on target to match the sights. For that gun this means a fairly stout 3.6gns of Tightgroup for cast 158's.

However I've switched to a different and cheaper load that uses the cheaper to buy 130gn LRNFP cast bullets and trimmed the front blades on my cowboy action revolvers to match this bullet shooting at around 900 fps from a 3.6gn charge of Tightgroup or equivalent. I could have gone lighter but I refuse to stoop to "mouse fart" loads like some others. I paid for GUNS and I want to feel like I'm shooting proper guns....:D In this case the front sights, which were too tall anyway, were trimmed down slowly over a number of sessions to match the load instead of the loads to the sights.
 
Your not going to want to use an aggressive crimp on those plated bullets, if you do you risk breaking through the thin plating.

And plated bullets also have a limited velocity range they can be pushed at, unless they are TP (thick plated), in which case they could be loaded using jacketed data, and a more aggressive roll crimp could be applied as well.

As powders are concerned, TG will work, but it's not an optimal powder for a brand new reloader. It's one of those fast burners that can easily be double charged. So if you do use it, make 100% sure you double, even triple check the charged cases with a bright light prior to seating the bullets.

GS
 
Jlr2267 said:
I never claimed such
Click to expand...


Your claim was such that it's ok to use jacketed data as it's conservative for plated bullets. Plated bullet manufacturers generally recommend lead load data.

I have yet to hear anyone suggest that jacketed data is "conservative" for plated bullets. Unless you misused the word conservative.

From data that I use I do not see similar charge weights of powder producing lower pressure with lead than jacketed.

Borrowed from a post by BDS:
I dug through and looked for jacketed and lead load data that used the same nose shape bullets (FMJ vs lead RN). 1999 Winchester load data (http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=159609&stc=1&d=1329800605) lists the following for 9mm 124 gr FMJ/LRN and 45ACP 230 gr FMJ/LRN:

124 gr FMJ W231 Start 4.2 gr (1005 fps) 28,800 PSI - Max 4.5 gr (1060 fps) 32,700 PSI

124 gr LRN W231 Start 3.3 gr (910 fps) 23,800 PSI - Max 4.0 gr (1035 fps) 32,900 PSI

230 gr FMJ W231 Start 4.9 gr (695 fps) 14,900 PSI - Max 5.7 gr (830 fps) 19,200 PSI

230 gr LRN W231 Start 4.5 gr (765 fps) 15,500 PSI - Max 5.1 gr (870 fps) 19,800 PSI
If you compare the FMJ and LRN load data, you will note the max chamber pressures are comparable but the powder charges used are not.
 
ljnowell said:
Your claim was such that it's ok to use jacketed data as it's conservative for plated bullets. Plated bullet manufacturers generally recommend lead load data.

I have yet to hear anyone suggest that jacketed data is "conservative" for plated bullets. Unless you misused the word conservative.

From data that I use I do not see similar charge weights of powder producing lower pressure with lead than jacketed.
Click to expand...

Generally speaking, it is conservative with respect to pressure. Plated bullet manufacturers suggest lead data because the velocities associated with published lead data are more in line with those required by the plated bullets...has nothing to do with pressure concerns.

Yes, there are exceptions in the data and it is not written in stone.

In the OP's case (38 spp), there is no data for jacketed bullets that produce velocities beyond what a plated bullet can handle, thus using jacketed data will very likely give him equal or better velocity at less pressure, with no adverse effects
 
Last edited:
Several things here.
Some plated bullet makers say load like cast, some say load like jacketed.
XTreme says: "Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities. We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp
Any velocities over 1200 FPS we recommend either our Heavy Plate Concave Base or Hollow Point products for superior accuracy."
You are not going to see 1200 fps out of a .38 Special, so move on. But remember the bit about crimp.

They talk about the velocity their bullets will stand, but your loads are controlled by chamber pressure. If you look at Hodgdon data, they show a maximum standard pressure .38 Special load of 3.9 gr Titegroup with a 158 gr jacketed bullet, 3.8 gr Titegroup with a 158 gr cast bullet. Insignificant. Chamber pressures are close, but velocity differs considerably because the greater resistance of a jacketed bullet will not let it get up to as high velocity with the black powder era .38 Special limitations. That is the price you pay for those shiny jacketed bullets. The plated bullet is softer but still has the high coefficient of friction of dry copper on steel. It just is not going to get down the barrel as quickly as greasy lead.

If you are shooting .38 Specials in a .357 revolver, you are working with a 100% safety margin, you don't have to sneak up on the maximum Special load. Even with the greatest of caution, you should not try to sneak up from below the handbook starting load with a jacketed or plated bullet. The risk is more the other way, a timid reloader might load too lightly and stick a bullet or bullet jacket in the barrel where a dirty old lead bullet would be expelled safely. I have seen it happen.

There is a lot more to handloading than picking a load out of the charts. Even the boring fine print about "starting loads" and "working up" will save you a lot of worry and searching for "recipes" combining minor brands of components.
If you just must have a "recipe" I suggest you make a list of combinations of components for which you can find specific "recipes" and take it with you when you go to buy stuff.

There is a lot of concern with OAL (Over All Length) and how it affects load performance. We get into discussions of nose shape, roundnose, flatpoint, hollowpoint without a clear conclusion. It would be more obvious which way to go if we reverted to a practice common in the 1930s when seating depth was specified. A little math and you will have a specification that avoids all consideration of bullet shape.
This would be especially helpful when trying to load these smooth sided plated bullets. A cast revolver bullet has a crimp groove, a jacketed revolver bullet has a crimping cannelure. OAL and seating depth are automatic. Few plated bullets have anything of the sort. You can guess, you can ask on the internet, or you could even go by seating depth if you could find a conventional bullet with crimp groove to set a standard.
 
Jlr2267 said:
*Generally*, load data for a jacketed bullet of the same weight, in the same application, will be conservative for a plated bullet. You could use xtp data as a safe starting point for your plated 158gr bullets.
Click to expand...
To suggest jacketed data is conservative for plated bullets is simply wrong.
 
Check out www.stevespages.com. Click on "My Pages" in the upper left, then next go to "Reloading" which is right above his mug shot. That will take you to a table of contents. Not the most easiest site to figure out.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

blackd24
  • Locked
Reloading 38 Special
2
Replies
38
Views
4K
Crazy Horse
Crazy Horse
Mr_Flintstone
  • Locked
.38 Special Question
Replies
19
Views
1K
Walkalong
Walkalong
D
  • Locked
HP-38 & W231 load data
Replies
10
Views
2K
steve4102
steve4102
Cokeman
  • Locked
Charging and Seating .38 Special
2 3 4
Replies
77
Views
4K
Cokeman
Cokeman
Crazy Horse
  • Locked
38 special and Titegroup
Replies
20
Views
8K
Reeferman
Reeferman
Back
Top