38 Special Reloading Headache

[Jlr2267]

To suggest jacketed data is conservative for plated bullets is simply wrong.

Conservative w/respect to pressures. Some manufacturers even recommend *mid-range* jacketed data rather than the starting jacketed load. From extreme plated bullets website:

"Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities.*We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp"

From Berry's website:

"We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data.*"

"our plated bullet has the same pressure curve as a hard cast bullet, the published cast data will be very close to what you will get with our plated bullets. If you use Jacketed data with our plated bullets you can get from 5% - 8% increase in velocity using that data"

Here's what rcmodel answered to this *exact* question some 8 years ago (and several times since):

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-321631.html

This has also been my experience, and what little plated bullet data I have seen supports rc's, xtreme's and Berry's statements...

 

[StrutStopper]

I loaded up my first 38s recently with 158 gr xtreme rnfps over 3.2 grains of titegroup. I crimped to the cannelure. They worked well, I did not chrono them. I wanted to stay on the wimpy side due to lack of load data.

 

[Walkalong]

Conservative w/respect to pressures. Some manufacturers even recommend *mid-range* jacketed data rather than the starting jacketed load. From extreme plated bullets website:

"Our Copper Plated Bullets can be run at mid-range jacketed velocities or higher end lead velocities.*We recommend keeping velocities to less than 1500 FPS (Feet Per Second) and using only a light taper crimp"

From Berry's website:

"We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data.*"

"our plated bullet has the same pressure curve as a hard cast bullet, the published cast data will be very close to what you will get with our plated bullets. If you use Jacketed data with our plated bullets you can get from 5% - 8% increase in velocity using that data"

Here's what rcmodel answered to this *exact* question some 8 years ago (and several times since):

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-321631.html

This has also been my experience, and what little plated bullet data I have seen supports rc's, xtreme's and Berry's statements...

If you are trying to say that with the same powder charge a lead bullet of the sane weight will give less pressure than jacketed because it is softer and slipperier, making it easier to get out of the barrel, I will agree.

It isn't always true, IMHO, for plated, although in general I agree.

However, it sounded like you meant the powder charges for jacketed were conservative for plated of the same weight. Gotta be careful how things are worded.

 

[VWTDIGUY]

We decided to try something we loaded 12 of each grain, 3.4-4.0grs. He's going to take his carry revolver and I'll take my .357 and both shoot up a cylinder of each and see how we each like each setup. We will see how we did for our first setup and run and see where we need to be to continue.

I guess the "mouse fart" may be what we are after. Just something we both can shoot and have fun with it. I can do 50-100 rounds out of my Hot Rod 9mm no issues but the revolver with factory loads if I could do 50 I'd be happy. I am aware of carbon build up in the head space and always fully tear down my revolver after shooting. I bought some 357 loads a few weeks ago that I swore must of been +P 158gr. They were hptnloads and threw a decent fireball and it felt like I was standing behind a howitzer when it went off. In the long run I should of found a 38 special but something about a Police Service Six 357 has always appealed to me and also narrowed it down that the revolver was built the same week o was born.

Only thing we have been disappointed so far has not been the powder but LEEs meager instructions. We thought the Carbide Crimping die would set the billets as well but we were wrong and had to add the final step, the setter and crimping die was not crimping enough. But in the long run doing everything step by step one at a time will help prevent double charging because I agree 3.5 GRS is tiny.

So we basically
50-100 at a time is our goal or what ever was shot that day
Deprimed and sizes the mouth
Cut cases to max overall length, now to be reset to trim all the same length.
Cleaned and polished
Reprimed
Belled the end to seat bullet and filled on the press
Set bullet on case
Set bullet and inital crimp
Then one final pass with the carbide die.

Makes me wish we went with a turret setup but we have the locking rings and fast die changer on the LEE so everything is set once installed other then spot checking every 10 rounds or so.

All this has been great info everyone. I appreciate it.

And yes if the crimp is over aggressive it will show up plain as day that the coating cracked.

 

[Jlr2267]

Here is what Berry's tech support said in an email response to the pressure question:

"With the plating being softer than the jacket on a jacketed bullet there will be less resistance when pushing through the barrel therefore the pressure will be reduced, however this will usually produce a slightly faster velocity with the plated bullet. Likewise if using data for a lead bullet there will be a slight increase in pressure and slightly lower velocity with the plated bullet compared to the lead bullet. The difference is slight but whenever working up a new load it is always best to work up gradually and look for signs of excess pressure on the primers."

 

[Jlr2267]

Walkalong: "However, it sounded like you meant the powder charges for jacketed were conservative for plated of the same weight. Gotta be careful how things are worded. "

That is exactly what I meant (conservative wrt pressure) and that conclusion is supported by the plated bullet manufacturers (see Berry's statement quoted above)

 

[nevadabob]

I use Extreme plated 158's with Accurate #2 @ 3.4-3.5 grains with a COL @ 1.433. I also use the Lee 4 die set with crimping on the last stage. I found out that if you don't crimp enough, revolver bullets will "walk" on you. I have a 5 shot Taurus 85 2 inch barrel. When I first started reloading, and wasn't providing enough crimp, after the first shot, each remaining round had an increase in COL. How much is enough crimp? I pulled a few factory plated rounds and noticed the "crease" or "indentation" on the plated surface. The ring was just barely visible. Then I set my Lee FCD to mimick that. And on setting the Lee dies, go to their website and look at their instructional videos. I found the enclosed 4 die instruction sheet somewhat confusing and not as helpful as the videos. The videos are brief but complete, lasting less than a minute each.

 

[Walkalong]

Walkalong: "However, it sounded like you meant the powder charges for jacketed were conservative for plated of the same weight. Gotta be careful how things are worded. "

That is exactly what I meant (conservative wrt pressure) and that conclusion is supported by the plated bullet manufacturers (see Berry's statement quoted above)

If one studies the various PDFs out now with plated data alongside their jacketed data, it does not back that theory up. Sometimes the charge is less, sometimes the same, and occasionally more for plated of the same weight vs jacketed.

To say the jacketed data is conservative if using the same weight plated bullet could get folks in trouble.

That said, I'll give you the last word, but I will not be convinced it is unilaterally good, or safe, advice.

 

[Jlr2267]

Walkalong, you should raise your concerns with the bullet manufacturers, and share your data with them...apparently you have some relevant info that they don't have...maybe you can save a life by sharing it (possibly mine!)...that is the responsible thing to do, don't you think? I tend to go with manufacturer's advice but you can do what you want.

Neither I nor the manufacturers have said this is *unilaterally* true, but have explicitly stated that it is *generally* true.

In my opinion, and in the opinion of the bullet manufacturers, it is *more* dangerous to use lead data than jacketed, the former stating lower pressures than you will actually get with plated.

 

[Walkalong]

Feel free to make fun of me and put words in my mouth, but not the bullet makers. You have twisted and expanded their message on loading the bullets.

 

[Jlr2267]

Feel free to make fun of me and put words in my mouth, but not the bullet makers. You have twisted and expanded their message on loading the bullets.

I've done nothing of the sort, and I would expect more of a high road member than to make such blatantly false statements. I posted, VERBATIM, the manufacturer's (Berry's) own words, which I will repeat here:

--> "We recommend using hard cast load data or start with mid-range jacketed data.*"

--> "With the plating being softer than the jacket on a jacketed bullet there will be less resistance when pushing through the barrel therefore the pressure will be reduced, however this will usually produce a slightly faster velocity with the plated bullet. Likewise if using data for a lead bullet there will be a slight increase in pressure and slightly lower velocity with the plated bullet compared to the lead bullet. The difference is slight but whenever working up a new load it is always best to work up gradually and look for signs of excess pressure on the primers."

And I am not making fun but am deadly serious in requesting that you share your data with the manufacturers, because they are, according to you, providing unsafe advice to the public.

 

[Toprudder]

Titegroup works very well in the 38spl since it is not position sensitive. However, it uses very little volume in the 38 case, so pay extra attention when dropping charges as it would be difficult to visually detect a double charge.

The Xtreme 158 RNFP have a crimp cannelure. I put a mild roll crimp on mine, but you may not need to if the neck tension is enough to prevent bullet creep.

The following data are from my test loads. YMMV. Always start low and work up. Shot from a 5" barrel GP100.

Xtreme 158 SWC, 1.445" COL, Titegroup 3.3gn, CCI 500 primer, 551fps, 42.9sd, 106 spread
Xtreme 158 SWC, 1.445" COL, Titegroup 3.5gn, CCI 500 primer, 613fps, 32.0sd, 90 spread
Xtreme 158 SWC, 1.445" COL, Titegroup 3.7gn, CCI 500 primer, 671fps, 18.4sd, 51 spread

Since the standard deviation dropped significantly as the charge increased, I will stay with the 3.7gn charge and not try to go lower. I plan to try higher charges at some point in the future.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

Only thing we have been disappointed so far has not been the powder but LEEs meager instructions. We thought the Carbide Crimping die would set the billets as well but we were wrong and had to add the final step, the setter and crimping die was not crimping enough.

Makes me wish we went with a turret setup but we have the locking rings and fast die changer on the LEE so everything is set once installed other then spot checking every 10 rounds or so.

If you are using both the seat/crimp die and the carbide FCD from Lee, I would recommend that you don't do any crimping with the seat/crimp die. Adjust it so the crimp ring does not contact the case at all. Since the crimp ring and seating plug are moving together, the case mouth begins to turn into the bullet while the bullet is still moving into the case, resulting in shaving of the bullet and possibly damaging the plating or coating, particularly one with no cannelure or crimp groove. If you have a relatively large crimp groove and all your cases are trimmed to the same length, they you can time it so the case mouth begins to be crimped in as it enters the groove, so shaving does not happen.

I personally prefer the FCD, but if you don't want to use the FCD you should be able to get plenty of crimp with the crimp/seat die. Remember, you set the crimp first by screwing the seat/crimp die body down (with the seating plug backed out) until it touches the top of the case (do it without a bullet), then screw it down at least 1/2 turn and as much as 1 full turn, depending on how much crimp you want, before tightening the lock ring. Then you screw down the seating plug to seat the bullet to the desired COAL.

And I think you would be much happier with a turret press. I prefer them because since all steps are done in sequence on each cartridge (I clean my cases before sizing/depriming and only trim for full house .357 magnum loads), and the press automatically steps the cartridge from operation to operation, there is far less chance of a double charge or other mistake. Sometimes I think I'd like a progressive to cut down on the number of lever pulls, but I like only having to be sure one operation at a time is being done properly.

 

[Zendude]

I load 158 grain Ranier copper plated bullets for 38 special. Ranier recommends using jacketed bullet load data, but I do not like to load all the way to the +P charge weight on the jacketed data. According to the Hornady manual, the powder load for jacketed 158 gr bullets is 3.3 to 3.9 g for regular loads and up to 4.1g for +P using Bullseye powder. I use 3.5g for mild practice ammo and 3.9 for hot loads with the plated bullets.

 

[ljnowell]

We decided to try something we loaded 12 of each grain, 3.4-4.0grs. He's going to take his carry revolver and I'll take my .357 and both shoot up a cylinder of each and see how we each like each setup. We will see how we did for our first setup and run and see where we need to be to continue.

I guess the "mouse fart" may be what we are after. Just something we both can shoot and have fun with it. I can do 50-100 rounds out of my Hot Rod 9mm no issues but the revolver with factory loads if I could do 50 I'd be happy. I am aware of carbon build up in the head space and always fully tear down my revolver after shooting. I bought some 357 loads a few weeks ago that I swore must of been +P 158gr. They were hptnloads and threw a decent fireball and it felt like I was standing behind a howitzer when it went off. In the long run I should of found a 38 special but something about a Police Service Six 357 has always appealed to me and also narrowed it down that the revolver was built the same week o was born.

Only thing we have been disappointed so far has not been the powder but LEEs meager instructions. We thought the Carbide Crimping die would set the billets as well but we were wrong and had to add the final step, the setter and crimping die was not crimping enough. But in the long run doing everything step by step one at a time will help prevent double charging because I agree 3.5 GRS is tiny.

So we basically
50-100 at a time is our goal or what ever was shot that day
Deprimed and sizes the mouth
Cut cases to max overall length, now to be reset to trim all the same length.
Cleaned and polished
Reprimed
Belled the end to seat bullet and filled on the press
Set bullet on case
Set bullet and inital crimp
Then one final pass with the carbide die.

Makes me wish we went with a turret setup but we have the locking rings and fast die changer on the LEE so everything is set once installed other then spot checking every 10 rounds or so.

All this has been great info everyone. I appreciate it.

And yes if the crimp is over aggressive it will show up plain as day that the coating cracked.

The Lee seating die is capable of producing so much crimp that it would destroy the case and bullet. If you can't get enough crimp with it it's an adjustment issue.

 

[Captaingyro]

VWTDIGUY, you've gotten some great advice here and seem like you've got a handle on the correct range of charge weights. Let me make a suggestion for your choice of a "go to" powder charge:
During your test firing, see which powder charge results in the correct point of impact for your gun's sights at the distance you'll most often shoot. Since you'll end up with a range of comfortable loads, you might as well pick the one that puts your sights dead-on.

 

[VWTDIGUY]

Yes, lots of great info gained here. We have done close to 100 rounds of different powders, Titegroup, Bullseye and HP-38. We nixed using the No 2 for now. We did some playing around made batches of 5-10 of every level from min to max and a few above and below the numbers. We have it narrowed down to a 3.3 to 3.5 grains on both, that matches what we are after, accuracy, vs recoil and comfort. We accidentally loaded a set too low 3/1grs didn't stick in thhr barrel, if it was any longer it may have. But it got the attention of our friend and fellow reloader at the range and he said now them are Mouse Farts!

We have also noted the Titegoup is a snappier power but dirtier and the HP-38 has less snap, requires roughly the same GRS but shoots far cleaner. I got a faceful of Titegroup powder after 10 rounds forgot how bad that stuff burns and does not taste too good. We just simply were too low on charge.

We now also have a few other bullets, cast wadcutters, both hollow bottom and flat bottom, some Speer FMJ round nose, and some other Wadcutters we will be loading as well now that we are leading what eqypuals what on the charges if it isn't listed.

Thanks again for all this great info.

 

[VWTDIGUY]

lJNOWELL, I agree we have backed of the setting die to only set OAL and set the bullet and not crimp and are using the Carbide crimper to do the crimping. Our fellow reloader discoved this while teaching us. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Walkalong]

Let me try this approach.

Berrys has changed their position on this over the years. They even still seem to contradict themselves a little on the website.

The newer stance,

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q9-c1-How_do_I_load_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx

vs the older stance

http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q21-c1-Load_Data_for_Berrys_Preferred_Plated_Bullets.aspx

Both of which are still on the website.

I have taken some people to task when they post "use lead data only" with plated bullets, as some starting lead loads can stick some plated bullets due to the increased friction. Especially if the powder is forward in the case. Lead is much more forgiving of powder position.

And I often link to my old plated data post,

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=6195350&postcount=11 Accurate and Hodgdon online also have some plated data now.

which was prior to Berrys "use any jacketed data" stance.

I have read the various PDFs with plated data next to jacketed data. They indeed show higher max charges with some plated bullets in some applications, but the same or less, sometimes significantly less, with others. That tells me that the blanket statement of jacketed data is conservative with plated cannot stand on its own. It tells me jacketed data can sometimes even be over pressure using some plated bullets. There must, IMHO, for safety reasons, be a caveat with that statement.

Since we don't have labs, I believe we owe it to readers to error on the side of caution.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sounds like you are getting the hang of it VWTDIGUY, and yes, the carbide ring in the FCD will iron out the bell, which is all we really need to do anyway.

 

[rcmodel]

I have taken some people to task when they post "use lead data only" with plated bullets, as some starting lead loads can stick some plated bullets due to the increased friction. Especially if the powder is forward in the case. Lead is much more forgiving of powder position.

I agree completely!!

Also since many new reloaders think if the starting load is safe?

I'll just, in my infinite wisdom, reduce it another grain or so to make it even 'safer'!!

In fact, the exact opposite is true.

Starting loads for either jacketed or lead bullets are likely safe with plated bullets.

Reducing a lead bullet starting load even further IS NOT SAFE with any type bullet in any caliber!!!!

rc