38 Special wadcutters?

[Pat Riot]

Maybe I am paranoid or spent too much time in a litigious society (CA) but I wouldn’t carry reversed hollow based wadcutters in an SD gun. I could see that being used against me in court. I don’t know if this has ever been an issue, but I don’t want to be some DA’s test rodent.

 

[lee n. field]

I bought a new box of ammo the other day for my 642. It is a box of 38 special wadcutters. Just glancing at the rounds, there is no bullet protrusion. I have not heard of these before and have not been to the range to shoot any of them yet either.

Are these just range quality rounds?

The original intent was as a range round.

Are they self defense type stuff? Looking for some guidance here.

Thanks,
Joe

but lately I'm seeing folks saying they're also appropriate as carry rounds. The reasoning is, from short barrel .38s you're not going to get the velocity needed for reliable expansion, so you might as well go with something that will get back on target quickly, and make reliable holes.

 

[Mark_Mark]

If you examine HBWC bullet designs, you'll find that most lack a crimping groove. That's part of the reason they are fully seated into the case and the crimp applied over the entire bullet.

The very first box of factory centerfire ammo I ever purchased was Federal .38 HBWC target ammo. I was amazed how well it shot from a Dan Wesson M15's 6" barrel.

I shoot a lot of .32 H&R full wadcutter handloads, using both hollow base and double-end designs. Some plated and some hard-cast, but mostly soft swaged lead. The best shooters for me have been Lapua target HBWCs, sized down from .314"-ish to .309" so I can seat them without risking damage to the thin skirt around the base.

Lapua Competition Bullets 32 Cal (314 Diameter) 98 Grain Lead Hollow

According to Lapua specifications the accuracy of these bullets must not exceed 30mm for a 10 shot groups at 25 meters, measured from center to center...

www.midwayusa.com

This practice would probably be pretty stupid with a jacketed or hard-cast bullet, but these soft lead jobs expand to shoot accurately from .311" bores for 7.62x54R Russian, .303 British, 7.7 Japanese, etc. using a chamber converter. They've even grouped nicely for me through .329" 8mm bores.

ZF-41 + Yugo K98/48 and Husqvarna Sporter

Another indoor session with my Yugoslavian M98/48 and its reproduction ZF-41 scope, using .32 H&R adapter/conversion chamber sleeves. [text continues below]...

www.youtube.com

I've experimented with plated wadcutters seated slightly forward of the case mouth, but my best results came from a consistent crimp applied over a fully seated bullet.

Bullet Groovy machine!!! $130 might get one and make the ultimate Full House .357 Mag HBWC SHTF loads!

Bullet Cannelure Tool

This popular reloading tool will roll a cannelure groove on any jacketed bullet from 17 to 45 caliber. Completely adjustable for depth and height. One setting will produce thousands of bullets. Also useful for making a second cannelure to lock the core to the jacket to control expansion of...

www.buffaloarms.com

 

[doubleh]

I have shot a lot of them over the years to punch paper competing only with myself. All were my handloads but using commercial bullets. I am currently out of bullets.

I have never shot anything but paper with them but do believe in an up close and personal SD situation they would quickly get the attacker's attention. A third of an inch hole in you should make one focus on what just happened.

 

[DMW1116]

I love shooting these from my 357. I load them into 357 Mag cases with 3-3.5 grains of powder, either W231 or CFE Pistol. They just didn’t shoot very well from 38 Special cases. I’ve not seen factory versions available anywhere so I quit looking. If you need to hit a 6” target from 50 yards with an offhand shot, they’re your go to projectile.

 

[CDW4ME]

If one has a "better than nothing" or "wouldn't want to get shot with it" outlook and is content with .36 holes in attacker(s) they might carry wadcutters.
However, if one would prefer to make larger holes in attacker(s) there is HP ammo that expands .60 -> .70 from a snub.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

 

[Walkalong]

Maybe I am paranoid or spent too much time in a litigious society (CA) but I wouldn’t carry reversed hollow based wadcutters in an SD gun. I could see that being used against me in court. I don’t know if this has ever been an issue, but I don’t want to be some DA’s test rodent.

I doubt they would give much penetration anyway, best to buy a good factory defensive round.

 

[bernie]

I am a guy that carries wadcutters, albeit loaded a little warmer than target levels, for defensive purposes. High performance .38 Special ammo such as HST does indeed perform very well, if it is moving fast enough to expand. Out of a snub revolver it is not always possible to achieve expansion velocity. The .38 wadcutter may not expand, but it will cut a .358 diameter hole pretty reliably.

 

[Walkalong]

The .38 wadcutter may not expand, but it will cut a .358 diameter hole pretty reliably.

The hard cast DEWC (vs the HBWC) will definitely cut full caliber holes through things.

 

[shoebox1.1]

I feel safe as kittens carrying my precision one plated wadcutters in 638. I KNOW they’re getting all 5 in em’ and is going to do the job. ( I don’t want to ever find out how they perform though!)

 

[Mark_Mark]

Maybe I am paranoid or spent too much time in a litigious society (CA) but I wouldn’t carry reversed hollow based wadcutters in an SD gun. I could see that being used against me in court. I don’t know if this has ever been an issue, but I don’t want to be some DA’s test rodent.

I agree, I’m sure there are really good factory SD round built for the job. But we are talking about knowing you can if you had to. Call me paranoid too! my wife does

 

[halfmoonclip]

Some of my older LEO shooters used to tout hollow based wadcutters loaded backward (the opening facing out) as self defence rounds....

Skeeter Skelton might not have invented these, but he did write them up. He called them "Planet Wrecker Specials", and the recipe called for a coal scoop of H110 behind a HBWC, loaded backwards. We fired them in J-guns; they were unpleasant to shoot, but blew up water filled milk jugs. Set them aside for other things, but eventually clocked some through a 2.5" M66, and they were in the 1100'sec range.
Mas Ayoob goes on at some length about not using such handloaded ammo, concerned that a zealous DA would claim you were really anxious to shoot someone. YMMV. Pat/Mark, you're not just being paranoid....
We've been loading 'full charge' wadcutters, which are at about the level of the old 158 RNL; with a Berrys PDEWC, they do about 740'sec in a J gun. Always thought these would make a decent carry load for snubs.
Federal does make a 130 gr HST +P factory version of the Planet Wrecker Special; they are an angrier critter than the Full Charge rounds.
Moon

 

[CajunBass]

Someone, Federal I THINK, used to make a defensive load that was essentially a reverse wadcutter, with a post in the center, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was called. I'm sure someone else remembers them. They were supposed to be the cats meow at the time. They might still be made for all I know. I think they were developed for the Federal Skymarshall program where armed law enforcement officers rode on random airliners to counter hijacking.

HYDRA-SHOCK! That's what it was called. Google can be your friend. Sometimes.

BTW. There are a number of video's on Utube dealing with the reverse wadcutter idea. I haven't watched them, but will later today.

Federal still loads a bullet called a "Hydra-Shock" but it's not the same Hydra Shock I remember from back in the day. Same idea, but different bullet design. Probably better, and available in more calibers.

 

[whatnickname]

Will be trying this old school load! heard of really good stuff about it!

but is it better than modern bonded 38 HP? hummmm…

“Better” is somewhat subjective as there is some very good, premium defensive commercial ammo available today. What I will tell you is that these are effective at distances out to 7 yards. After that these bullets become unstable and start to tumble. Accuracy is poor. The other load you may wish to consider is a 158 grain swaged lead hollow point over 5.0 grains of Unique. This is the reloaded equivalent of what was once known commercially as the FBI load. Again, either Speer, Hornady or Remington component bullets.

 

[Buckeye63]

38spl snubbie .. Federal 130 HST +P will expand.. it doesn’t recoil like a +P … and is a modern Wadcutter but with a deep hollow point
And the Hornady 90gr ,110gr&125 gr FTX will expand from a 38spl snubbie ..
I personally carry the HST load in my 856UL ,
Lead Wadcutter in my 642 , or 110gr FTX
My model 12 snubbie.. which I don’t carry , but is loaded with 158gr LSWC , my Taurus NV has 110gr FTX
My 357LCR is loaded with 38spl +P Underwood 125gr XTP … that revolver handles recoil extremely well
My Charter Pitbull 40 S&W & Taurus 856UL are my most carried Snubnoses
I actually think the 40 S&W is the perfect cartridge for a steel framed snubnose
So many great 40S&W SD cartridges that will expand in a 2 inch barrel
If it works in a 27 it will work out of the Charter

 

[lee n. field]

If one has a "better than nothing" or "wouldn't want to get shot with it" outlook and is content with .36 holes in attacker(s) they might carry wadcutters.
However, if one would prefer to make larger holes in attacker(s) there is HP ammo that expands .60 -> .70 from a snub.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

If you're thinking of the HST Micro, those were dropped (they stopped making them) because they couldn't get consistent performance.

 

[CDW4ME]

If you're thinking of the HST Micro, those were dropped (they stopped making them) because they couldn't get consistent performance.

Interesting.
How about Golden Saber +P @ .62 and PDX1 Defender +P @ .63 and Ranger Bonded +P @ .60 from a snub.

 

[reddog81]

If one has a "better than nothing" or "wouldn't want to get shot with it" outlook and is content with .36 holes in attacker(s) they might carry wadcutters.
However, if one would prefer to make larger holes in attacker(s) there is HP ammo that expands .60 -> .70 from a snub.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/revolver-ballistics-test/

To be fair the wadcutter ammo actually did pretty good. The penetration was consistent and at 16" was better than any of the ammo that expanded to more than .4" Some of the premium rounds in the link didn't really expand very well or were light on the penetration.

 

[lee n. field]

Interesting.
How about Golden Saber +P @ .62 and PDX1 Defender +P @ .63 and Ranger Bonded +P @ .60 from a snub.

None of those are wadcutters, which the original poster was asking about.

The HST Micro is* a wadcutter of sorts. Jacketed bullet, with an extreme hollow point, and loaded flush with the case mouth. It's like the old idea of loading a hollow base lead wadcutter backwards, done as an commerically developed and produced load. Word I see out on the Interwebz (Interwebz rumor == YMMV) is, they couldn't make it perform consistently. It would either open up a lot, and not penetrate much, or fail to open and penetrate deeply.

https://www.federalpremium.com/hand...e/personal-defense-hst-micro/11-P38HST1S.html

Federal's image:

(*"is", sort of. Still some floating around out there. I've got a couple boxes.)

 

[Mark 40]

I feel safe as kittens carrying my precision one plated wadcutters in 638.

Purchased several times and have always been happy with the Precision One wadcutters, great stuff.

 

[NeroM]

Both Buffalo Bore and Underwood load a 150 gr hard wad cutter stand pressure loads, but with more velocity than traditional target WC loadings. From a LCR, the BB load - a Chrony clocks approx 850 fps. These are fairly easy to shoot, hold to point of aim at approx 8 to 10 steps, have been functionally reliable, leave a nice hole in test targets. They work well !

 

[Elkins45]

Both Buffalo Bore and Underwood load a 150 gr hard wad cutter stand pressure loads, but with more velocity than traditional target WC loadings. From a LCR, the BB load - a Chrony clocks approx 850 fps. These are fairly easy to shoot, hold to point of aim at approx 8 to 10 steps, have been functionally reliable, leave a nice hole in test targets. They work well !

That’s what I have loaded in my J frame now. I like the idea of punching a full diameter hole all the way through, and the flat nose gives good energy transfer.

 

[cfullgraf]

I shoot lots of 38 Special wadcutters. They are great plinking rounds at the range especially if you are not into Bullseye competition. Low recoil, low cost, nice clean holes in the target.

As such, I have bullet moulds for wadcutters in 32, 44, and 45 caliber as well.

A decade or so ago, I decided to get proficient shooting my double action only S&W 642. I used wadcutter ammunition for the practice. Once I got proficient with the wadcutter ammunition, I moved one to something more powerful and easy for cylinder reloads. A moon clip full or speed loader full of wadcutter bullets are difficult to load in a revolver quickly. Something with a nose on a bullet works better as the bullet nose helps align the cartridge to the cylinder.

But, you learn these things on the practice range on what works for you.

Remember, a hit with a wadcutter trumps a miss with anything more powerful, but practice and proficiency with more powerful ammunition will have better end results in the long run.

 

[SeanSw]

According to https://www.federalpremium.com/hand...e/personal-defense-hst-micro/11-P38HST1S.html this round has been discontinued. I thought it had promise.

 

[gilgsn]

Wadcutters are good as target bullets for two reasons: First, they cut a nice hole in paper, easier for scoring. Second, since the seating depth is increased, they allow the use of a small charge of fast powder like Bullseye, so it makes the reloads cheaper. Any other bullet would increase case volume, and too much empty space in a case can cause problems. For someone who shoots a lot at paper targets, the savings in powder costs add up quickly.
For defensive use, I would guess they would be better than round-nose bullets. Hot loaded, 38+P or 357 Mag, they are probably decent in that role, though a commercial hollow-point might be a better choice for legal and performance reasons. Of course a hot loaded HBWC loaded backwards is a whole other animal.
I only use wadcutters when I buy a box of 38s at the range if I didn't reload that week, but they are handloads and I don't trust them all that much.. I wonder if for old revolvers with a bit of play, a wadcutter could cause a rather violent realignment of the barrel/chamber. Of course in that case the problem should be fixed, but using, say, WFN bullets might be better. My assumption might be totally wrong too, I'm not quite sure..
Gil.