.38 super or 10mm for defense?

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Full power loads from your commander-sized gun will be on the order of a 180 gr. bullet going 1,300-1,350 FPS.

My defense load is a 180 gr. Golden Saber that exits my 3.5" Witness Compact at 1,340 FPS and my 5" S&W 1006 @ 1,405 FPS. It hits 1,430 FPS in my 5-1/4" poly rifled Witness limited and 1,380 FPS in my G20. Never chronoed it out of my Kimber Stainless Target II.

I haven't yet fired it into ballistic gelatin, but in pottery clay, it penetrates 17" and expands to .9". I expect similar expansion but an additional few inches penetration in gel.
 
I'm not a fan of chasing after the "best ballistics".


I have a Colt Lightweight Commander (4 1/4" barrel) that's running well over 25,000 now. Some 9x23, lots of 38 Super and 9mm. I had it chambered in 9x23 - a 9mm barrel with a 9x23 reamer. And I've got a spare 9mm barrel I use for high round count training classes and lost brass matches.

It'll work with 9x23 or 38 Super (SuperComp brass these days) interchangeably. The components cost less than a 10mm to shoot. It handles much better than a 10mm - the recoil is much more manageable. I usually run it as a 38 Super, 125 gr XTPs anywhere between 1150 fps to 1315 fps. And it'll take one more round.


I'd advise using the Commander-length standard barrel - 4 1/4 inches, and not a flat 4 inches. You'll find much more parts support.
 
hmm.. 17 inches sounds like a lot of penetration.. .9 inches is quite large.. seems the added energy adds to more expansion, but the penetration concerns me, if its still going 17 inches with that much expansion it seems it would be quite likely to over-penetrate when youre doing your best to prevent it from doing so
 
also.. y'all never answered my question about the .38ACP vs 38 super.. same exterior dimensions, the .38ACP brass ive seen seems to have a thicker wall, is there a reason this wasnt just loaded to 36,000PSI instead of a new headstamp, or is it for safety reasons to have two different rounds, though with the same dimensions?
 
The wall of the case doesn't do much besides seal to the chamber wall. The web and head matter a lot more for containing pressure. I have no idea if the 38 ACP could take it or not, just offering this as general info.
 
yeah.. i dont have any empty brass to measure that with.. would be interesting to know the numbers, though the .38 super does have a distinctively more modern look to it, with an angle portion of the case in front of the rim
 
If you buy the "super" from the store, chances are, it's loaded to super specs. This is the convention. It's not marked in stone but it's marked in brass. Don't shoot that out of a .38acp.
 
Jason,

Just leave the 38 ACP alone. There's a reason why Colt didn't try to do what you're thinking back in the 1920's and 30's. The web of the brass won't support higher pressures. In fact, when I load a hot 38 Super, I use small rifle primers. It's not the sides of the case you need to worry about. The primer and base will give out long before the sides will, and give the shooter a case of "Super Face".


If you're going to play with the 38 Super, use actual 38 Super brass.
 
now why would i ever consider using .38ACP when .38 super is available... and why would i consider a 38 super barrel when a 9x23 winchester barrel allows me to fire .38 super and 9x23 winchester?, i was simply asking the differences between the two... 38ACP isnt common so much, i cant remember the last time i seen a handgun chambered for it.. they could have improved it with a thicker base (which is obviously what the 38 super is).... so my question was why give it a new name?.. my guess is so no one accidently fires something too hot in something too old
 
I still don't understand why the .38 Super is more accurate than the 10mm or why the 7.62x25mm is more accurate still. None of them have any extreme velocity or aerodynamic efficiency advantages ove the others. None of them are so mass produced that you can expect to see shoddy barrel manufacturers much.
 
Not every 9x23 will safely handle the 38 Super. The dimensions are not the same.

The 9x23 is tapered, meaning its larger at the base and smaller at the mouth. The 38 Super is completely straight. So when you put a 38 Super into a 9x23 chamber and fire it, the base expands more than it needs to.

It'll reduce the life of the 38 Super brass.


Jim Garthwaite worked over mine for me and built it up knowing I'd shoot more 38 Super than 9x23. He uses a reamer that's forgiving of shooting 38 Super in a 9x23. So I trust doing it in mine. I wouldn't trust it in any old 9x23 chamber. Or if I did, I wouldn't load that brass more than a few times.
 
No personal experiance here, but the .38super tends to run much better on the 1911 platform than the 10mm from what my buddy, a 1911 gu-ru tells me.
 
really? tapered means it gets narrower?.. i never thought that, i thought it was held together with tape

so FMF doc, of 38 super runs so much smoother, why do you seem to see so many more 10mm 1911s, and 10mms in general?.. just a slightly more popular cartridge?

anyway, the thing that concerns me about .38 super is the rim on it is fairly large for its size... does this ever cause feeding problems with one rim hooking another, or does it ever cause the stack of rounds in the magazine to try to curl like an an AK mag?... its a fairly large rim for an autoloading firearm
 
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i did some reading on .38 super 1911s, and the information i found makes me even less likely to go this route... it seems a great number of people have experienced feeding problems on a full magazine because the angle of the cartridge being fed into the chamber is a little of...

could this be because the slightly larger rims of the 38 super rounds are pressing against eachother, making the rounds want to take on a banana shape in the magazine?.. if not, what does cause this problem with the 38 supers, and either way... how do people fix it?

i heard some people trim down and resize .223 brass for .38 super for more reliable feeding and only need an extractor adjustment for it to work... is this true?.. and if so, can standard .38 super rounds still be fed?
 
I still don't understand why the .38 Super is more accurate than the 10mm or why the 7.62x25mm is more accurate still.
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No cartridge is inherently accurate or inaccurate. The reason .38 Super is popular in competition is because it makes major PF while being more controllable in rapid fire than .40, 10mm or .45. 9x19 won't go major unless loaded to rifle pressures.

The 9x21 IPSC is the "international .38 Super"
 
why do you seem to see so many more 10mm 1911s
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LMAO!!!!

What gun and cartridge rules the IPSC & USPSA?

At least try to give the impression that you have some idea what you're talking about. When you get a driver's license, head out to a few ranges while they're hosting some pistol matches.
 
yeah.. show me the number of products chambered in .38 super that are not IPSC or USPSA.. i really dont care about the race guns people have built and fine tuned for competition, that does NOTHING for me... i see no point in dropping thousands on a race gun with 6 inch barrel, compensator, etc.. im looking for something for defense only... i honestly dont care how many professional competition guns are made in .38 super, and its sometihng im never going to care about... i do see a lot more 10mms sold as regular consumer products than i see .38 super

in fact.. we might as well take .38 super out of my list of choices, it seems like it has more problems than a mild performance increase (if that) over +P 9mm... so as of now its 9x23mm winchester or 10mm
 
If you can get high velocities out of more massive bullets then you pick the caliber that provides the most energy and momentum to the target. That would be 10-mm if your choice is between .38 Super and 10-mm.
 
It was generally conceded years ago that the .45 Colt in a SAA, or .45 ACP in a 1911 is about the upper level of controllability in a gun fighters gun.

More blast and recoil (10mm) or smaller holes (.38 Super) have been proved to be less then desirable for fast follow-up shots and rapid blood loss that end fights time after time.

rc
 
yeah.. seems if you scale up those 500fpe 9x19mm loads for 9x23mm youd have 600-700ft/lbs energy, but then again if you used the same powders in the 10mm case you would have even more.... i guess thats why i sometimes hear people refer to the 10 mil as an auto magnum
 
After reading through this thread, I think these two guys have expressed my thoughts.
BullfrogKen wrote,
OK smart Alec . . . go figure it out on your own.
Click to expand...
45_auto wrote,
At least try to give the impression that you have some idea what you're talking about. When you get a driver's license, head out to a few ranges while they're hosting some pistol matches.
Click to expand...
 
jtq.. and who in the hell do you think you are to come into a topic and simply post an insult?
 
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