ceestand
Member
I'm positive this has been hashed out before, but I was looking for info and opinions regarding .38spl versus 9mm as a defensive round. I searched, but found nothing satisfactory. Anyone care to redirect me or opine?
.38 vs 9mm
- Thread starter ceestand
- Start date
- Status
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
- Messages
- 4,925
9x19 is more powerful than .38 Special by a fair margin. .38 Special +P loads at best match standard-pressure 9x19 factory ballistics, and can't keep up with the 9x19 +P or +P+ stuff. So unless you belive in some kind of free ride, 9x19 is a more capable self-defense cartridge than .38 Special, but not by a huge margin.
OH25shooter
Member
I would have to agree the 38 and 9mm are close. Comes down to what do you want to carry for defense: a 6/7 round 38 revolver or 10+ round automatic. Plus, which can "you" handle the best.
fish2xs
Member
It's been only a year since I bought my first handgun (sig226).
What decided it for me was that I could buy 100 rounds of 9mm
for $10. Yea, 22 would be even cheaper, but I wanted something
with 'umph'.
Less expensive rounds == more time at the practice range == a better
self-defense round.
FWIW, I never worked hard to price 38spl. Maybe I could have found
it comperable.
What decided it for me was that I could buy 100 rounds of 9mm
for $10. Yea, 22 would be even cheaper, but I wanted something
with 'umph'.
Less expensive rounds == more time at the practice range == a better
self-defense round.
FWIW, I never worked hard to price 38spl. Maybe I could have found
it comperable.
The .38 hasn't seen as much in the way of development with newer loads and bullet designs. The 9mm very much has.
The common .38 special +P loading fires a 158gr bullet at just south of 900fps (278ft/lbs energy, if that matters to you). Provided you're shooting a 3" barrel (or longer), that round will expand even though modern 4-layer denim covered gel.
The more common 9mm +P loadings fire a 124gr bullet at 1100-1200fps (~ 360ft/lbs energy, again if that matters to you). Many rounds will expand in 4-layer denim covered gel. Vaunted +P+ loads (like the 127gr Ranger T) will increase these numbers somewhat.
Both rounds have varying loads available with overlapping performance.
The mentioned .38 load (the so-called "FBI Load") is fairly well thought-of in most circles.
Actual damaged matter caused by the bullet (so-called "crush cavity") is more or less the same for both calibers, AFAIK. The 9mm has more energy, make of that what you will. Anything that has less than 500-550ft/lbs of energy, IMO, should be considered solely on the weight of its ability to penetrate and upset (for the purposes of producing a larger bullet) alone. When you get up to the 500-550 mark, then energy can be looked at, though it still takes a back seat to penetration and bullet upset. Again, IMO.
The choice between 9mm and .38 spl should be made *entirely* on platform and not what wonder-bullet the ammo-company of the month is pimping. If you like a Glock, choose 9mm. If you like a Colt revolver, choose .38 spl.
The common .38 special +P loading fires a 158gr bullet at just south of 900fps (278ft/lbs energy, if that matters to you). Provided you're shooting a 3" barrel (or longer), that round will expand even though modern 4-layer denim covered gel.
The more common 9mm +P loadings fire a 124gr bullet at 1100-1200fps (~ 360ft/lbs energy, again if that matters to you). Many rounds will expand in 4-layer denim covered gel. Vaunted +P+ loads (like the 127gr Ranger T) will increase these numbers somewhat.
Both rounds have varying loads available with overlapping performance.
The mentioned .38 load (the so-called "FBI Load") is fairly well thought-of in most circles.
Actual damaged matter caused by the bullet (so-called "crush cavity") is more or less the same for both calibers, AFAIK. The 9mm has more energy, make of that what you will. Anything that has less than 500-550ft/lbs of energy, IMO, should be considered solely on the weight of its ability to penetrate and upset (for the purposes of producing a larger bullet) alone. When you get up to the 500-550 mark, then energy can be looked at, though it still takes a back seat to penetration and bullet upset. Again, IMO.
The choice between 9mm and .38 spl should be made *entirely* on platform and not what wonder-bullet the ammo-company of the month is pimping. If you like a Glock, choose 9mm. If you like a Colt revolver, choose .38 spl.
Cosmoline
Member
Don't forget that the .38 special +p+p is the prototype for the .357 Magnum. The "+p" loads for .38 Spl. you see today are far, far less potent than the hot loads of the pre-litigation era. If you handload and have a Ruger, you can easily load .38 Special to outstrip any 9x19 ever made.
tiberius
Member
Of course, if you have a Ruger, there's at least a 99% chance that it is a .357 and NOT a .38 SPL only
If you're buying new, then you may as well get a revolver that accepts .357 since they are the same size and weight at the .38 only's are now.
IMHO the diference between .38spl and 9mm is the difference in the platform more than the cartridge.
Mikul
Member
Police shootings involving the .38 show lackluster performance when compared to a 9mm. Even the .38 +P isn't a match.
The .38 falls almost in the middle between a .380 and a 9mm.
The .38 falls almost in the middle between a .380 and a 9mm.
cratz2
Member
I currently own a Kahr P9 and a Taurus 85CHULT. Both are similar in weight and size except for width of course. The Taurus holds 5 rounds of +P 38 Special while the Kahr holds 7 or 8 rounds of +P+ 9mm. The Kahr has proven 100% reliable and when shooting rapidly, the Kahr will dramatically outpace the Taurus. I know this is a fine compact 9mm and a 38 Special that's entry level among lightweight revolvers but in my experience, the 9mm is a much better choice for me.
I have a lot of faith in quite a few of the current crop of 9mm ammo... 124 Gr +P Gold Dots, 127 Gr +P+ Rangers, 115 and 124 Gr CorBons. The upcoming, newly-developed Gold Dots intended for 2" snubs looks promising but when comparing these two similarly-sized guns (the Kahr and the Taurus), the 9mm should expand much more reliably.
I have a lot of faith in quite a few of the current crop of 9mm ammo... 124 Gr +P Gold Dots, 127 Gr +P+ Rangers, 115 and 124 Gr CorBons. The upcoming, newly-developed Gold Dots intended for 2" snubs looks promising but when comparing these two similarly-sized guns (the Kahr and the Taurus), the 9mm should expand much more reliably.
Jim March
Member
From a 3" or 4" barrel, the VERY best 38+Ps do quite well indeed. They may not match the paper ballistics of the 9+P, and barely break into 9mm energy levels if that, but they compensate to some degree with better projectile designs - fatter JHP cavities because no "feed ramp compromises" are needed.
The Winchester 130 +P Supreme is a good example. Speer is apparantly going to try and up the ante with a 135grain Gold Dot designed for snubby +P velocities and with a big "flying ashtray" of a hollowpoint cavity. Then there's the soft unjacketed lead 158 hollowpoints which work well at speeds below 1,000fps. The existing Gold Dot 125 for 38+P speeds isn't bad but is a bit long in the tooth and Speer is doing a welcome upgrade.
The gun can deliver that adequate power and effectiveness with low peak pressures because the case is grossly oversize, being one of the last black powder cartridge designs.
Upshot: pick your ammo VERY carefully, and the 38+P can still get the job done.
The Winchester 130 +P Supreme is a good example. Speer is apparantly going to try and up the ante with a 135grain Gold Dot designed for snubby +P velocities and with a big "flying ashtray" of a hollowpoint cavity. Then there's the soft unjacketed lead 158 hollowpoints which work well at speeds below 1,000fps. The existing Gold Dot 125 for 38+P speeds isn't bad but is a bit long in the tooth and Speer is doing a welcome upgrade.
The gun can deliver that adequate power and effectiveness with low peak pressures because the case is grossly oversize, being one of the last black powder cartridge designs.
Upshot: pick your ammo VERY carefully, and the 38+P can still get the job done.
Josey
member
You could also do what many others have done. Get a Ruger single action revolver with 357 Magnum/38 Special and 9MM interchangable cylinders. You have the best of three cartridges then. Arcus also has this dual cylinder set up in a double action revolver.
4thHorseman
Member
38's bullets like all revolvers bullets, are not depended on actual overall shape since feeding into the barrel is not a point to consider.
I believe the bullet can be made blunter to expand easier because of this.
There was never a stopping power problem with the 38 +P when the cops went to the 9mm. It was a matter of more ammo in a gun and the spray and pray idea.
It all comes down to what can you hit with the most power you can provide. A 44 isn't as good as a pea shooter if you can't hit anything with it. Again, the 38 has served well for nearly a century. I think it will be around for a long time to come.
38's don't leave a blinding six foot muzzel flash when fired like 357's. They are comfortable to shot, even for older people. They don't crack your eardrums into pieces as a 357.
38 is as good as a 9mm in my book.
They are jam proof and as "safe" as a gun can get. Meaning being a revolver, it is a deliberate action to fire a revolver.
The same can be said about a 9mm. Why a 9mm when a 40 cal is so much better in the same size gun?
It's all preference. It's all opinion.
I believe the bullet can be made blunter to expand easier because of this.
There was never a stopping power problem with the 38 +P when the cops went to the 9mm. It was a matter of more ammo in a gun and the spray and pray idea.
It all comes down to what can you hit with the most power you can provide. A 44 isn't as good as a pea shooter if you can't hit anything with it. Again, the 38 has served well for nearly a century. I think it will be around for a long time to come.
38's don't leave a blinding six foot muzzel flash when fired like 357's. They are comfortable to shot, even for older people. They don't crack your eardrums into pieces as a 357.
38 is as good as a 9mm in my book.
They are jam proof and as "safe" as a gun can get. Meaning being a revolver, it is a deliberate action to fire a revolver.
The same can be said about a 9mm. Why a 9mm when a 40 cal is so much better in the same size gun?
It's all preference. It's all opinion.
trooper
Member
In the early days of the GSG 9 they used to issue S&W revolvers because some people didn't trust semi-autos to be reliable enough back then.
GSG 9 officers used .38 special JHP during the famous raid on the hijacked Lufthansa plane in Mogadishu. They found them to lack both sufficient penetration and stopping power, and switched to .357 mag loads soon afterwards.
Nowadays they rely on 9mm, AFAIK it's Dynamit Nobel Action 1.
Regards,
Trooper
- Status
Similar threads
