380 vs 9mm question

[oneounceload]

flinching is something only inexperienced shooters do.

Complete and utter BS!

Go to your local trap club and watch the guys who have been competition for decades and all of those release triggers because of flinching. Flinching is caused by exposure to too much recoil over a period of time. Too many wannabe macho folks who think THEY know what their wife wants without asking her because they think they can handle it - no different than the idiots who buy their wives scandium J frame 357s with a box of full power loads................

 

[golden]

If recoil is a problem-try sig or beretta

I have been shooting a number of different 9m.m. and .380ACP pistols over the years and the most important thing is usually the grip.

I carry a SIG 232 which has an aluminum frame, but a relatively large surface area on the grip. It is easy to control and I can shoot 150 rounds at a time without feeling like I was beaten.

I also shoot a BERETTA model 84. This gun is larger and a little heavier, but is very easy on recoil. The magazine holds 13 rounds, so you have a wide grip area, making the recoil pretty mild.

Try a range rental with these guns and see if you wife is comfortable with it. I ended up giving my wife, who had a problem with recoil, my SIG 225 which is a 9m.m., because the excellent grip on this pistol fit her hand as well as it fit mine. Recoil became controlable for her, where she had difficulty with smaller guns.

I sold a KAHR CW9 because the recoil of the 9m.m. in this small gun was more than I wanted to deal with. I could shoot it, but I did not like to shoot it, so I would not practice enough. I have found that you have to balance the recoil with the size of the gun you want to use.
If it is not comfortable to shoot, then nothing else matters because you will be using it under the worst possible conditions with little preparation.
If you can shoot the gun comfortablely, you can practice and get used to the gun and shooting the way you may have to in a crisis.

Good luck,
Jim

 

[YZ]

In fact, the majority of 380 owners shoot FMJ ammo for SD.

Where did you get this information? The majority of 380 owners don't shoot in self defense.

Most 380 pistols function better with FMJ ammo and the 9mm kurtz is a rather anemic cartridge.

They do, and it may be. What is your point?

 

[Robert101]

As stated above, let her shoot a range gun for comparision. I personally have a Browning DBA and my daughters have Bersa 380s. These guns shoot extremely well and recoil is minimal. Most people just don't shoot enough to understand how to manage the recoil. Carrying a gun is no substitue for shooting one.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

In fact, the majority of 380 owners shoot FMJ ammo for SD.

Where did you get this information? The majority of 380 owners don't shoot in self defense.

As I read Deer_Freak's comment, he seemed to be saying that those with .380s who carry their weapons in a SD role use FMJ as their carry ammo. Maybe he should have written "carry .380" rather than "shoot .380" for maximum clarity , but I think most reasonable folks understood his point.

As for your claim? Probably correct, but how can we EVER know for sure?

I've not found any convincing tests or evaluations that show whether FMJ or HP is more effective for that caliber in a SD role.

I found the Kel-Tec P3AT and Ruger LCP, both small, light .380s, to be almost brutal to shoot.

 

[YZ]

Man you should see the hollowpoint wound channel. The HP rounds are also loaded to higher pressures. That makes them less than fun to practice with. But they are the ones to make your pocket pistol much more effective. For trusted sources, Massad Ayoob (who is a member here) is highly recommended.

Edit: Bob Campbell I think wrote on this also. He does his own ballistic trials.

 

[mountain_man]

First let them pick out their own gun, but I understand putting together a list of reliable and good quality guns for them to pick from. Second if they do want something really small then have them try the Smith and Wesson Bodyguard 380. I did this for a lady who was wanting to find a carry gun, and she picked out the BG 380 and loves it. I even took her to a gun show so she could see options other than 380's, but she handled the BG 380 and fell in love with it. Also the recoil is mild with it. However, it does have a long da trigger pull that takes some getting used to but doesn't bother her or me for that matter. The slide is fairly easy to rack, the little lady who got it was able to rack it with no problems, and it is a little heavier than the lcp. She did let me shoot it a little and I was able to put the whole first mag onto a 6x8 steel plate from 7 yards in a decent amount of time. I will also be the first to tell you that I am not that great of a shot.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Man you should see the hollowpoint wound channel. The HP rounds are also loaded to higher pressures. That makes them less than fun to practice with. But they are the ones to make your pocket pistol much more effective. For trusted sources, Massad Ayoob (who is a member here) is highly recommended.

You may be right about hollowpoint wound channels in the larger (.40, .45) calibers, and I've found some interesting analyses of .38 special and .45 hollowpoint performance on other forums. None of that addresses .380 round performance, however. (And are you saying that Mas Ayoob addressed .380 HP performance?)

Comparative data on .380 performance is not easily found on the internet -- and I've looked. You will find a lot of folks praising their choice of loads, explaining their rationale for their choices, and offering citations from the ammo makers about round performance -- but little in the way of test results or post-mortem analysis.

The issue is made worse by the fact that most of the .380s being purchased nowadays for SD use have very short barrels, which reduces the performance potential of the round.

If I remember correctly, the guns used by the FBI (S&W .38 special revolvers and 9mm S&W semi-autos) in the infamous 1986 Miami shootout against used Silvertips (in 115 gr rounds?). Those guns had longer barrels and fired more potent rounds, with heavier bullets than the .380 -- and there were some real issues with round performance. Those issues led to the FBI using 10mm semi-autos and, after that experiment didn't work for them, to the development of the .40 S&W round for FBI use. While rounds have IMPROVED since 1986, I would be suprrized if the .380s being offered today outperform the Silvertips used in the Miami shootout.

If you (or anyone else reading, here) have access to good data about FMJ and HP .380 performance, please share it with us, perhaps via some links...

 

[YZ]

The 380 caliber is a life saver for civilians, close range. Thats pretty much why it is still in use. Foregoing HP's is a common mistake. I am on the road and don't have any literature handy, but do remember reading M Ayoob on how 380 FMJ bounced off pig heads. Many people have found small 380s comfortable to shoot, but they were using weaker ammo. So everyone deserves to understand its full potential.

 

[stressed]

Do you have a link where he mentions the FMJ round deflecting? You also have to remember, a pig head is much more robust and thicker then a human's head. Still, that's pretty nuts. I have culled various animals with a .380, and even a JHP penetrated into the brain cavity.

Even deer are tougher in general then a human. Could have something to do with them living and sleeping outside, having to forage/work for their own food, evade predators, etc. I believe a deer of 150lbs being shot isn't going down as easy as a person of 150 lbs.

 

[YZ]

Look stressed I am not a fan of 380. Said so in the beginning. It's a bear to shoot from a small pistol as a hot self defense JHP. Someone said its not so bad, I said its probably because you shot the weaker (someone said anemic) FMJ round. That's all.

 

[cheesebigot]

.380 is going to do the job just fine, especially out of a gun that is easily managed by the shooter. I'm surprised there has been no mention of the CZ 83 in this thread.

 

[javjacob]

There are quite a few .380 & 9mm pistols that are a handful. The laws of physics cannot be denied.
See above. There are many very experienced shooters who develop a flinch from shooting high powered guns

there are ways to stop yourself from flinching. A 9mm isn't a hard recoiling gun and with some training anyone can handle one just fine. Its not like we are talking about a 44mag or a 500 S&W mag. the flinch is all in your head and you have to train yourself not to do it. I used to box for many years and when I first started I had to be trained not to flinch or close my eyes when getting hit like a lot a beginners. Now that was years ago but I believe that boxing helped me mentally with high powered guns. flinching is a habit that can be broken with training.
So all I am saying is don't buy the wife a gun she will outgrow unless she isn't at all serious about it. I make my wife shoot my guns on occasions... she really didn't like my 12 gauge at first but after she shot a few clays she was enjoying it. just got to learn the techniques and the do's and don'ts.

 

[javjacob]

Go to your local trap club and watch the guys who have been competition for decades and all of those release triggers because of flinching. Flinching is caused by exposure to too much recoil over a period of time. Too many wannabe macho folks who think THEY know what their wife wants without asking her because they think they can handle it - no different than the idiots who buy their wives scandium J frame 357s with a box of full power loads................

big difference in a 9mm and a 357mag! I would never buy my wife a 357mag. 357mag is PLENTY of gun for self/home defense

 

[onthehunt]

Have you considered the Ruger LCR in .22 mag?

 

[TarDevil]

javjacob, it's not just about caliber. A 9mm in a 30 oz gun is a soft shooter. In some of the pocket pistols under 15 ozs, it is more than a handful. A .357 in a Ruger Blackhawk is manageable, but in a scandium J frame is punishing. Yes, technique can help with those light guns, but it still can be painful for even seasoned gun users. If this kind of math doesn't make sense to you, I question how much experience you've had shooting them.

 

[Torian]

I carried hot FMJ or HP in my SIG 232 depending on the weather. If I was looking to shoot through multiple layers of clothing, I tended to lean towards a FMJ round. In warmer weather, always a HP.

The right .380 load can definitely do the job. If I still had my 232, I would be shooting this load from Underwood as my HP load:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgkyazkngus

 

[Fryerpower]

I carried hot FMJ...]

Where do can you find data on the amount of powder in a round? The weight of the bullet is easy to find. How about how much powder they stuck in there, how "hot" it is?

FWIW, I did not notice a difference in felt recoil between the defensive JHPs I shot and the FMJs I shot. All out of a TCP.

Jim

 

[YZ]

Fryepower
Your observation was correct but it depends on the manufacturer. Some JHP are for expansion only, others for expansion and penetration. The latter is supposed to penetrate heavy clothing, especially leather, before expanding. The FMJ vs JHP discourse is nothing new. It is anyone's personal decision. Just better when it is an informed decision. I have no dog in this, um, discussion. When get home will try to find the quotes.

 

[2A Apparel 757]

9mm

9mm all the way, not much bigger in size, if it's a sub, I prefer 9mm everytime.

 

[funnelcake]

While the .380 round is slightly less potent than 9x18 and 9x19

The .380 & 9x19 are not even in the same ballpark in terms of ultimate capability. The above is like equating .38 Special and .357 - wrong.

Funnel

 

[Walt Sherrill]

While the .380 round is slightly less potent than 9x18 and 9x19

The .380 & 9x19 are not even in the same ballpark in terms of ultimate capability. The above is like equating .38 Special and .357 - wrong.

You're right, and I agree. I should have inserted "and even less potent than the 9x19..."

My intent, however, wasn't to equate the rounds, but to point out that the less potent .380 round can very unpleasant to shoot if the gun isn't large, heavy, or doesn't fit the hand well.

 

[bdickens]

I'm not sure he was giving you MARITAL advice, as observing that an awful lot of men buys guns for their wives or girl friends, with the best of intentions, but often have limited success.... The whole process often seems to go better when the woman involved plays an active part in the selection process; it can get expensive, otherwise...

Bingo.

...My wife isn't keen on the idea of her carrying....

...I am intent on getting her to get carry...

Yeah. 42 years or not, it doesn't take a PhD in Psychology to see trouble lurking. I've only been at this married thing for 10 and I know better.

 

[javjacob]

javjacob, it's not just about caliber. A 9mm in a 30 oz gun is a soft shooter. In some of the pocket pistols under 15 ozs, it is more than a handful. A .357 in a Ruger Blackhawk is manageable, but in a scandium J frame is punishing. Yes, technique can help with those light guns, but it still can be painful for even seasoned gun users. If this kind of math doesn't make sense to you, I question how much experience you've had shooting them.

Wait? Why does the story keep getting twisted? This thread is about 380 vs 9mm. I picked the 9mm over the 380. The debate wasn't over a full sized heavy 380 vs a mini frame feather weight 9mm? Why would you compare apples to oranges? Why not compare apples to apples? Both the 380 and 9mm are about the same size but the 9mm is better performing and the ammo is cheaper. Neither are hard to shoot in the right gun. I don't like lightweight guns and would never own one so I don't see how that would make me inexperienced?

 

[Fryerpower]

Fryepower
Your observation was correct but it depends on the manufacturer. Some JHP are for expansion only, others for expansion and penetration. The latter is supposed to penetrate heavy clothing, especially leather, before expanding. The FMJ vs JHP discourse is nothing new. It is anyone's personal decision. Just better when it is an informed decision. I have no dog in this, um, discussion. When get home will try to find the quotes.

Back in post 10 I listed what I have put through it:

This is what has been put through it so far:
MFG Case Bullet Grain Number shot
Blazer Brass FMJ ? 24
Hornady Brass JHP Z-Max 90 6
Fiocchi Brass JHP 90 29
Tula Steel FMJ 91 6
Winchester Brass Flat FMJ 95 0
Winchester Brass JHP Silver Tip 85 1
Total Shot 66

Yanking numbers out of ... the air, I would expect the Hornady and the Winchester Siler tips to have the most punch. I just picked up a box of Remington Golden Saber and would expect it to be up there also. Agreed I only shot 6 rounds of the Hornady and one of the Silver tip, but I did not notice any difference in felt recoil. Maybe the gun just fits me. Maybe the Pachmeyr grip makes all of the difference in the world. Maybe I need to blow through two boxes of the good stuff and see if my hand starts to hurt. But honestly, I did not feel much of a difference, if any.

The felt recoil SHOULD be higher with higher powder loads and similar bullet weights. I would love to have a FMJ with the powder load of a Golden Saber JHP to use in the winter. I need to start digging and find out how much powder each one of these has in it.

Jim