380 vs 9mm question

[TarDevil]

My wife isn't keen on the idea of her carrying....

I am pushing her to carry for her own safety.

This is just my personal belief: If an individual isn't interested in carrying or shooting, it is unwise to force guns on them. Too easy for them or someone else to get hurt by someone who isn't passionate enough to read, learn, practice and be proficient with both handling and shooting guns. My best friend ASKED me to teach her to shoot the shotgun and she did excellent. She practices with it. It is her bedside companion. If the time comes she asks me to help her be proficient with one of my handguns, then we'll start shopping.

I would not venture advice to the OP about pushing his wife to carry. I do worry about the consequences of pushing a gun into the hands of an unwilling individual.

 

[javjacob]

Lets not forget the most important part. Make sure you do plenty of research on the specific gun you are interested in buying. I remember my wife wanted a pink lady, the charter arms small lightweight snub nose 357mag revolver... in pink. I told her that she would shoot it once and it would hurt so bad that she would never want to shoot it again and she wouldn't even be able to hit her target. She insisted that was the gun she wanted because she didn't want a big and heavy gun so I had her try out a few different guns and had her watch a few videos of people shooting the pink lady and she quickly changed her mind about it. She now knows that smaller light weight guns aren't easier to handle.

 

[jrdolall]

There is no right answer to this question. As it has been pointed out there are plenty of 9mms that have less recoil than some of the .380s. 9mms generally weigh more which is a concern when carrying. Pocket 380s, at least the ones I have shot, have a pretty snappy recoil.

All I can say is that it is far better to get a lot of guns in her hands and let her "feel" them. If you have a friend with a lot of guns then let her shoot several. I am not opposed to some of the small 22lr pistols if that is what it takes to get someone comfortable with a gun. If she really enjoys shooting then I seriously doubt this will be the only gun she ever owns.

 

[Fryerpower]

I am not opposed to some of the small 22lr pistols if that is what it takes to get someone comfortable with a gun.

We have a winner!

I was trying to get my wife familiar with our house gun. The service sized 9mm feels great in my hands, but she kept flinching! After half a box of ammo (at 25 cents a shot) and nothing hitting the target we stopped. I researched and bought a .22 with the same form factor. A bit smaller, but all of the controls are in the same spot. She hit paper on the first shot and was very comfortable shooting it. We did that for 50 rounds and then switched back over to the 9mm. No flinching, on target on every shot.

The next step is to start slipping some snap caps into the magazine mix to work on failure drills.

 

[herrwalther]

The first thing to realize when you are helping your wife shop for a gun is you WILL be wrong. About nearly everything. My wife went through 4 handguns before she settled on a firearm she liked enough to carry: a Bersa Thunder. She had a S&W Bodyguard .380, Kel-tec P3-AT, Taurus M327, and an AMT Backup .380 that became mine. She hated all of them. My next recommendation was a Walther PPK/S. She handled one at a gun show and immediately didn't like it. The safety was too far, trigger too far, heavy trigger etc etc. But the Bersa Thunder is almost a direct clone of the PPK/S but like I said, wrong. She didn't want any pink anywhere near her firearm, but she bought a pink handled Bersa with the pink sights. The sights are cute but the grips had to go.

Rentals will be your friend during this stage of picking out a gun for her. Even better if you have friends with guns for her to try.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Yanking numbers out of ... the air, I would expect the Hornady and the Winchester Siler tips to have the most punch.

A heavier bullet doesn't necessarily mean heavier recoil, if the powder pushing it isn't a lot greater, too.

That's the problem with trying to evaluate stuff like this on paper. As you say, you didn't notice a lot of differences between many of the loads.

I'll continue to look for some comparative data for various .380 rounds -- but don't expect to find much, at least as it applies to the smaller .380 guns.

 

[rtrwv]

Got myself a 238 had to buy a 2nd for the wife cause she likes to she it so much. She said it was so easy on her using corbon 90gr jhp.
Forgot to add bought a third for my brother after he jonesed for mine.

 

[Fryerpower]

A heavier bullet doesn't necessarily mean heavier recoil, if the powder pushing it isn't a lot greater, too.

I wasn't trying to imply that it has and effect one way or another. It was more of a "minimize variables" kind of statement.

Jim

 

[YZ]

Do you have a link where he mentions the FMJ round deflecting? You also have to remember, a pig head is much more robust and thicker then a human's head. Still, that's pretty nuts. I have culled various animals with a .380, and even a JHP penetrated into the brain cavity.

See M Ayoob, Combat Handgunnery, 6th ed, page 97.

 

[HighExpert]

My wife has arthritis in both hands and is recoil sensitive because of it. Her favorite gun is an older Beretta 84. She fired in excess of 1500 rds through it in her two day S&W pistol course and had no problems. She also owns a Pocketlite, a Sig 230 and a Ruger LCP. The Beretta is her go to gun. I have heard the tales of .380s being ammo sensitive and I just haven't seen it. There are some hollowpoints that some guns don't like but that is why you test. The Critical Defense ammo feeds and fires every .380 I have tried them in and we own 9 different .380s. Let her shoot the gun and then decide. You cannot buy her a gun that will be the "best" for her. One other point, I have seen several comments about the "wimpy" ammo. My wife has trained to get off multiple rounds very quickly. At 20yds she will hit a half size silhouette 13 times in less than 5 seconds. Each bullet may be wimpy, but how do you feel about 13 of them?

 

[Dave P.]

I'm going to wander off here and suggest she try a Ruger LCR in .38
These are lightweight, soft shooting with a very nice stock trigger.
No slide to screw with and no feed issues.
For someone who is not a "shooter" they are a pretty good choice.
Lots of different loads avail. to tailor the recoil to the shooter/task.
Dave

 

[bdickens]

There is no right answer to this question. As it has been pointed out there are plenty of 9mms that have less recoil than some of the .380s. 9mms generally weigh more which is a concern when carrying. Pocket 380s, at least the ones I have shot, have a pretty snappy recoil.

All I can say is that it is far better to get a lot of guns in her hands and let her "feel" them. If you have a friend with a lot of guns then let her shoot several. I am not opposed to some of the small 22lr pistols if that is what it takes to get someone comfortable with a gun. If she really enjoys shooting then I seriously doubt this will be the only gun she ever owns.

And some women can easily handle and even prefer a .45!

 

[jrdolall]

And some women can easily handle and even prefer a .45!

True and I know quite a few of them but none that carry a .45 though I am sure plenty do. I have never met anyone that started out learning to shoot with a .45 though, once again, I have no doubt that plenty of people do.

 

[The_Armed_Therapist]

The .380 is less powerful, but in smaller frames than the 9mms. In general, I'd say the felt recoil is similar for this reason. Exceptions exist--such as the Diamondback DB9. In other words, the Ruger LC9 and the Ruger LCP are comparable in recoil. It then becomes a matter of concealability (.380) vs. controllability (9mm), in my opinion.

 

[rick melear]

If you can find her one a Beretta 84 is perfection

 

[javjacob]

why do so many people act like the 45acp is such a bad @$$? sure its a big caliber bullet but its only around 400 ft lbs of muzzle energy and around 900 fps. rather pathetic really for what it is. compare that to a 9mm which is around 350 ft lbs of muzzle energy and 1200 fps. the 9mm is no slouch for what it is.

the 380 is only around 200 ft lbs of muzzle energy and around 950 fps... that's barely half of what a 9mm is.

the 357mag is around 600 ft lbs of muzzle energy and around 1500 fps
the 44mag is around 800 ft lbs of muzzle energy and around 1400 fps

 

[YZ]

Many of those people are professionals, javjacob. They appreciate the real life track record of 45ACP. It is persuasive.

 

[Deer_Freak]

Where did you get this information? The majority of 380 owners don't shoot in self defense.



They do, and it may be. What is your point?

My point is you are misinformed.

http://www.ballistics101.com/380_acp.php

 

[Pilot]

If you can find her one a Beretta 84 is perfection

I think the Beretta 84/85 series is the best .380 pistol out there. I own, and sometimes carry an 85FS. It is still a blowback with a bit of snappiness to the felt recoil. If I were recoil sensitive, I'd prefer a locked breech action to reduce felt recoil.

 

[YZ]

My point is you are misinformed.

http://www.ballistics101.com/380_acp.php

OK Deer. Are you able to articulate where I went wrong?

 

[Walt Sherrill]

The CYNIC in me keeps wanting to speak out in these types of discussions.

First, I appreciate the link to the Ballistics Comparison for the various .380 rounds, above. That's the best comparison I've seen.

I was surprised to see, however that many of the rounds cited showed only modest improvements in ballistic performance over the standard FMJ round unless you went to +P loads. And I find from other sources, that just looking at the ballistic performance stats isn't necessarily meaningful.

What I haven't seen is actual analysis of the PERFORMANCE of these or other rounds in real-world tests. Does a hollowpoint round really perform differently (is it more effective) than a FMJ, when it encounters something other than ballistic gelatin? Is a HP round as competent in crossing several layers of clothing as a FMJ round, etc.​

Muzzle energy is a topic that gets discussed on the forums, as does velocity. But we're talking about a .380, here, and I'm beginning to think that while I don't want to be shot with ANYTHING (be it .22 or .380, or 9mm), some of these comparisons are a bit like arguing about whether a pointed stick that is sharper is better than one that's not so sharp.

If ballistic performance -- as applied to the proposed target -- is so darned important, why are we talking about .380s? It seems that everyone is looking for excuses to use a smaller caliber weapon when they really know that a larger caliber weapon is what's called for!!

 

[Deer_Freak]

Gentlemen, for the sake of clarity, please don't confuse the measurable recoil with the perceived recoil; and the (cheaper) round nose 380 FMJ with the defensive, much harder kicking hollowpoints.

Here is where you were misinformed. This is the statement that started the entire exchange. The chart at ballistics 101 shows that very few hollow points are loaded to a higher velocity than FMJ.

Most shooters do shoot FMJ ammo in a 380 because it lacks the velocity to make a hollow point expand. The only thing a 380 has going for it is penetration. I doesn't make very much energy. For comparison, a 22 wmr shot from a rifle makes around 320 ft lb of energy at the muzzle. A 380 makes around 200 ft lb of energy at the muzzle.

 

[YZ]

I wrote elsewhere that some HP are same power as FMJ, while other HP exceed it for penetration+expansion. It is the latter that bring the .380 to its full potential in self defense. With heavy leather jackets and layers.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Most shooters do shoot FMJ ammo in a 380 because it lacks the velocity to make a hollow point expand. The only thing a 380 has going for it is penetration.

When I once carried .380, I did use HP ammo -- but only because it SEEMED the best thing to do. It was difficult to find .380 HP ammo, and quite expensive. To further complicate matters, I never found evidence that it would expand AND penetrate sufficiently to do what was needed. Neither did I find that FMJ would perform as it should. There just isn't much information available that addresses the PERFORMANCE of the .380 round, other than ballistic summaries, as linked above.

Ballistic summaries are arguably better than nothing, but they aren't exactly predictive of real-world performance. How do we get the info needed to make better choices?

I quit carrying .380 because of this question mark.

I now have two small 9mms (a Kel-Tec PF9 and a Kahr CM9). I prefer the PF9, but when I shoot it, I find it more difficult to shoot well than other guns -- probably because I use other guns more often. I had the same problem with the Kel-Tec P11: after the first few rounds I was zinging them where they needed to go, but the first couple were not on target. For a carry weapon that isn't shot regularly, that's a problem. (Not a gun problem -- a shooter problem.) I seem to do better with the CM9, and will be using it more regularly at the range, as I grow accustomed to it. It may then be promoted to my carry gun (if I don't "upgrade" to a PM9, or return to the P9 I once had.)

 

[huntsman]

If ballistic performance -- as applied to the proposed target -- is so darned important, why are we talking about .380s? It seems that everyone is looking for excuses to use a smaller caliber weapon when they really know that a larger caliber weapon is what's called for!!

Because the wonderful world of plastic has made it possible to actually carry a small lightweight gun and for the vast majority of CCW owners carry is all we're ever going to do. So is a large caliber really necessary? Strip away the macho gunfighter mentality and factor in the fact that 6 out of 7 people survive GSW with medical treatment http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tku8YI68-JA&list=FLXrSwuTJsKa6YUlPWP95QRQ one can conclude that the odds of using your CC are infinitesimal and the odds of killing someone with a handgun are only slightly better regardless of big vs small caliber.