380 vs 9mm question

[Deer_Freak]

@Walt Sherrill, I usually carry a 9mm or a 357. But my wife doesn't wear uniform pants or jeans that will support a larger pistol. Her clothes are quite sheer. She uses a flashbang holster a lot because her blouse is to short/sheer for a belly band holster. A Kel Tec P-3AT is the only gun we have that will work with a flashbang holster. She would much rather have a larger caliber but a 380 beats a rock every time.

Mouse guns have been around forever. Mouse guns are used by everyone from women in skimpy clothing to FBI agents. No one is making an excuse to carry a mouse gun. A mouse gun in a persons pocket is 100% better than a 27 oz gun sitting in a safe.

 

[SEDurbin]

+1 to this.-----> "A mouse gun in a persons pocket is 100% better than a 27 oz gun sitting in a safe." End of Story.

 

[YZ]

If ballistic performance -- as applied to the proposed target -- is so darned important, why are we talking about .380s? It seems that everyone is looking for excuses to use a smaller caliber weapon when they really know that a larger caliber weapon is what's called for!!

Because less powerful feels more comfortable to some.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Mouse guns have been around forever. Mouse guns are used by everyone from women in skimpy clothing to FBI agents. No one is making an excuse to carry a mouse gun. A mouse gun in a persons pocket is 100% better than a 27 oz gun sitting in a safe.

Mouse guns have been around forever, but for many decades they fell out of favor. You might ask why that is -- why did they fall out of favor? It is only recently, when smaller, lighter .380s were developed, that they regained an audience.

I know a number of LEO, and a few of them have mouseguns -- as a backup, final resort, not as their primary self-defense weapon. I'm sure that's the case with the FBI, where a Glock .40 is the issue weapon.

My son is a State Trooper, and I gave him a P3AT -- which a number of his peers used; he later sold it and got a PF9. He used it some and tried shooting it at the greater distances required in our state when using a personal weapon on the job. Have you tried shooting a .380 at 20 yards? That's clearly a stupid requirement for a BUG, but the requirement is what it is.

One participant (looking back, I see it was YOU) said his wife simply can't find a better weapon, given the constraints of her size and the clothing she must wear. Good point, and I don't have a problem with that rationale. But a lot of the folks arguing FOR .380 here aren't small-framed women who wear clothes that make concealing a handgun a concern. Apparently, for them, it's just more convenient. That participant said he carried a 9mm or .45. If you have no other choice, use a 380. But, I think many have other, better choices.

Another responder made the point that the actual likelihood of being in an armed fight is almost infinitesimally small. I think he's right. But, what are the odds of one of those very rare confrontations coming out successfully on your part, if you use a .380 rather than something larger?

Nobody has an answer to that question -- or, if they do, they've not shared it where I can find it. A .380 may be an effective self-defense weapon. I simply don't know. But I think until I know more than I do now, I'm going to rely on something a bit more potent. The arguments about caliber continue, but a lot of the rationales used in the debate seem based on emotion, a conspicuous lack of facts or evidence, or arguably faulty logic.

 

[jimbo555]

For many decades mouseguns fell out of favor? Which decades? I've been around since the 50's. Walther ppks in 32acp and 380 always have been popular. Browning 25's and 380's were around throughout the 50's and 60's and 70's. The mauser hsc,beretta 70 and 80 series,still popular. I'm sure there is many more I forgot.

 

[TarDevil]

Her clothes are quite sheer. She uses a flashbang holster a lot because her blouse is to short/sheer for a belly band holster.

I picked my carry gun for different criteria that what I wore. Then I changed my style of dress for the gun.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

For many decades mouseguns fell out of favor? Which decades? I've been around since the 50's. Walther ppks in 32acp and 380 always have been popular. Browning 25's and 380's were around throughout the 50's and 60's and 70's. The mauser hsc,beretta 70 and 80 series,still popular. I'm sure there is many more I forgot.

I guess your definition of "popular" and mine are quite different.

Want to compare the number of 9mm or .40 semi-auto solds in the past 40 years to the number of .32 or .380 semi-autos sold? The FJstadt Blue Book probably has SOME production figures for these various guns.

For a number of years, priot to the middle of the last century, small semi-autos were popular, a sort of "gentleman's gun." I don't think that has been the case for quite some time.

 

[huntsman]

For many decades mouseguns fell out of favor? Which decades? I've been around since the 50's.

Colt quit making their small caliber pistols after WWII I don't know when they started up again but in a Gun digest from the 60's I have there's an interview with the president of Colt who said they (Colt) had no plans to make man killer guns, so a lot of post war .380 and .32 were imports till 68.

 

[ku4hx]

I don't think mouse guns so much fell out of favor but rather got overshadowed. With the advent of the "Wonder Nines", it just became all the rage (fad?) to have a "smallish" pistol with a magazine that carried a heretofore unheard of number of rounds. Enter the proverbial wagon and people jumping on it.

Knowledgeable gun persons (best not say "gun men" any longer) continued to own, use and carry mouse guns. Mouse guns may have fallen out of favor with makers since it's only natural to meet market demand. But that's a whole 'nother story.

Then along came the infamous 10 round magazine limit. Out of that came the idea if you have to have only 10 rounds you may as well have a gun downsized to meet the criteria. The rest is history and small guns once again became all the rage. Not that the rage ever really disappeared.

 

[YZ]

I think the new build materials, tough polymers among them, allow that mouse to have a bigger bite. One can take advantage of that, or stick to the vest pocket gun of yore.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Mouse guns may have fallen out of favor with makers since it's only natural to meet market demand.

Would they have fallen out of favor with the makers if they were still being demanded by the buying public?

I think the new build materials, tough polymers among them, allow that mouse to have a bigger bite.

I don't think there's any question that the new, smaller guns are more concealable, but that doesn't make them have a bigger bite. If you were to use modern ammo used in an older .380, that ammo would likely perform as well in THAT gun as it does in the newer guns (possibly better because of a longer barrel...) One possible improvement is in ammo -- as there are certainly more options for a .380 owner today than was the case in the past.

But, as I've said already, I've not been able to find any meaningful evidence that the old or new ammo really does what it needs to do to be an effective self-defense round.

I'll continue to look for test results and comparisons, but as I've already noted, comparing ballistic performance charts, as in the link provided earlier, only gives you part of the needed information -- evaluating those charts is a lot like the reading the horsepower and torque ratings for a car: interesting, but the real proof is found where the rubber hits the road.

 

[YZ]

Honestly, what the buying public demands does not always make sense. The likes of 25 cal Taurus, I'd be afraid to have on me.

 

[jimbo555]

Walt, have you found any evidence of the 380 not working in a defense situation? I can't find any. Many cops that work the streets say the 380 gets the job done when placed right. Because 9mm and 38spl. are more common police service rounds it's easy to find examples of failures to stop with those calibers.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Walt, have you found any evidence of the 380 not working in a defense situation? I can't find any. Many cops that work the streets say the 380 gets the job done when placed right. Because 9mm and 38spl. are more common police service rounds it's easy to find examples of failures to stop with those calibers.

People who work in the emergency room also say that .22s get the job done, when placed right. Placing them right is the challenge.

The lack of evidence, for either argument (pro or con), however, is not evidence.

Do you have non-anecdotal evidence that the .380 round -- in either FMJ or HP, in any of a variety of loads -- is (or is likely to be) effective? That's what I'm looking for.

I don't claim that .380 ISN'T effective. I just say that I've seen no evidence, either way -- and until I do, I'm avoiding .380 as a SD weapon. (Been there, done that.)


.

 

[YZ]

I don't think any older 380s ranked as mouse guns. Those were the Brownings and the Colts in 25ACP, maybe on a rare occasion a 32.

 

[Snowdog]

I'm late to the party, but in case it hasn't been said yet... a Sig P238 has some mild recoil, especially the HD model that is all stainless. My P238HD is one of my most often carried pistols. It's heavy for such a small pistol, but recoil is about as mild as can be had in a .380acp.

 

[YZ]

Good for you snowdog, but a single action small carry pistol is not for everyone. It takes a lot more training and discipline to carry it in Con 1 safely.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I don't think any older 380s ranked as mouse guns. Those were the Brownings and the Colts in 25ACP, maybe on a rare occasion a 32.

I didn't think I called the older .380s mouseguns. But, that said, some of the older .380 aren't particularly big guns. Star made the Firestar, which was reasonably small, and then there's the Colt Mustang, either in it's original form or the newer version. (SIG seems to like that design, as the 238 is clearly based on the Colt Mustang design.) Others here have mentioned larger .380 pistols, like the Beretta 84 and there's also the Bersa.

I simply said that some of the older .380s -- and the Beretta immediately comes to mind -- will outperform the newer mouse guns. The big attraction of the new guns is their smaller size, weight, and the ease with which they can be concealed. (One guy I met wore his Kel-Tec P3AT on a chain around his neck...)

You wrote that the new technology and materials give the new mouse guns a BIGGER BITE but, in fact, I'd argue they DON'T have a bigger bite. The new technology and materials simply helps make them smaller and lighter. The same round fired in the older guns will perform as well or better than in the new mouse guns.

 

[jimbo555]

Walt, I found one news report in the Washington post.I don't know how to post the link,but in 2003 a Indiana state trooper Scott Patrick was killed with 1 shot from a feg 380 that went in the officers shoulder and pierced his heart. The killer was shot twice by the officer and lived. He was convicted and sent to prison for life. The report doesn't state the caliber of the officers gun.

 

[jimbo555]

I own a Beretta 84bb and it is one of the best 380's ever made in my opinion!

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Walt, I found one news report in the Washington post.I don't know how to post the link,but in 2003 a Indiana state trooper Scott Patrick was killed with 1 shot from a feg 380 that went in the officers shoulder and pierced his heart. The killer was shot twice by the officer and lived. He was convicted and sent to prison for life. The report doesn't state the caliber of the officers gun.

Probably up close and personal, just like most SD guns will be used. Likely a PA-63.

Thanks for that.

 

[Gary A]

I read about every thread and every post I come across regarding .380 vs 9mm and the pros and cons of each. Partly because I like some of the guns in .380 very much, also like 9mm, and am wondering about a possible future of shortages, ammo-scarcity, having to make do with what one can find, etc and thinking .380 ball might actually be a better choice than 9mm ball in most situations, should it come to that, because it penetrates enough and over-penetrates less than 9mm ball.

My point here, though, is merely to observe with a chuckle and a shake of the head, how these threads almost always result in most posts advising people to go for the most powerful round and, yet, it is easy to find other threads going on simultaneously where people suggest all kinds of things for their wives, mothers, aging fathers, etc., etc. and seem quite comfortable suggesting these people carry .32 acp, .380, .38 special target wadcutters, and so on.

I realize something is better than nothing and the idea of carrying the most powerful round possible makes a lot of sense, but if the smaller rounds are simply not enough, I wonder why so many people are comfortable with their wives, mothers and aging fathers carrying them?

 

[YZ]

Good question Gary. Mostly, the condescending attitude.

 

[BLB68]

Ruger has a YouTube channel. On said channel, there is a series called Ruger Tactical Pocket Pistol Tips. In the video on Open Hand Fighting (close in, warding off with your weak hand, contact/near contact distance shooting), the instructor makes a very salient point around 2:22:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqqQky0SmYo

Video's short so after skipping the intro, no real need to fast forward if you want to hear the whole "tip" presented.

 

[jimbo555]

Good video BLB.