? 4 MDs/EMTs-WHERE 2 HIT?

[David N]

The brain and heart are obvious targets in a SD shooting. But the brain is protected by the skull - which I can't guarantee my 9mm round will penetrate - and the heart by the ribs. Can any medical professionals or combat veterans recommend other spots to aim for? For example, would aiming for the mesenteric artery be practical ? Besides the brain, heart, and genitals, where else could you place a shot to produce CNS shutdown and/or paralyzing pain?

Also, does anyone know where I can get anatomically correct targets with the heart and/or CVS pictured?

THANKS!

 

[Thin Black Line]

At personal defense distance, a 9mm will have no problem piercing any
part of the body.

It would be unethical for a medical professional to tell you how to produce
"paralyzing pain" in another human, BG or not.....

 

[1911 guy]

C.O.M.

Center of mass. Your 9mm will have no problem penetrating any part of the human anatomy at any reasonable (likely self defence) distance. Aiming for arteries will not facilitate CNS shutdown, it will cause a bleed-out. COM is where all the organs are. Head shots have their place, but are limited in practicality and application.

As for "paralyzing pain", bad idea. Concentrate on stopping an immediate threat, not the amount of pain you intend to inflict. That's a distant second to shot placement. Heck, not even second, just a byproduct of a bullet doing it's job.

 

[Pilgrim]

Also, does anyone know where I can get anatomically correct targets with the heart and/or CVS pictured?

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=244519
They're marked 'Anatomy'. The location of vital orgains and CNS are marked with subdued lines.

Pilgrim

 

[ShackleMeNot]

Shoot them high in the chest. Think about your target area being a triangle formed by the nipples connecting up to the Jugular (Suprasternal) Notch.

 

[sacp81170a]

Targets in list of priority:

Chest area - much as ShackleMeNot describes
Head - facial area from center of forehead to just under nose, another inverted triangle
Pelvic Girdle - anywhere in the "breadbasket"

 

[HorseSoldier]

+1 or +2 on COM shooting

Shoot center of mass. Vital organs and lots of large veins and arteries.

You're not good enough to reliably place shots on specific arteries or anything like that (don't take it personally, nobody is). You want to put rounds into areas that are "target rich environments" as far as vital equipment goes -- COM gets you lungs, heart, perhaps, spine, big bleeders like the aorta, and such.

As someone else noted, the head and pelvic girdle are good, too. The head, however, is a lower percentage shot. If you hit it with a 9mm, odds of lethality are pretty good. Odds of hitting it in the first place are lower than with COM, however.

Pelvic girdle is kind of a trade off. Not well equipped with real show-stopper organs, but lots of vascular piping in the region and smashing the pelvic girdle itself will put a target on the ground. Note that your goal is shooting the pelvis, not shooting the genitals. I'm not familiar with any claims that pain from being shot in the genitals is so incredibly painful that it stops people instantly or anything like that.

 

[wingnutx]

Center of Mass.

I'd tell you "make sure you hit the spleen so they bleed out quick," but that's just silly.

Aim at COM and you will hit somewhere in the vicinity. COM gives you some leeway in case your shot does not go exactly where you desire. (not that would ever happen, but you never know )

 

[ChristopherG]

The targets used in IDPA and IPSC give a somewhat nuanced take on the most realistic answer of COM. Their 'down zero' areas are in the center of the chest, 6" across (and a little longer for IPSC).

Under the stress of a mere timer, that turns out to be a smaller target than most people can typically hit, and smaller than even very talented professional shooters can hit every time. Under the stress of a real shooting situation, the idea that one could shoot with even greater precision is... well, it's based on an unrealistic vision of either the shooting situation, or the skills of the shooter, or both.

 

[Bobo]

Another target site:
http://www.letargets.com/html/home.html

 

[Byron Quick]

A general knowledge of anatomy is good. However, the 'general knowledge' I'm referring to has already been covered.

There would be a problem with aiming for specific arteries even if you possessed the ability to hit such small areas during the severe physiology of stress. That problem is the normal variation in internal anatomy among different members of the population.

My father's first cousin's longtime girlfriend told him it was over and not to come around anymore. Jim didn't believe her and drove out to her house in the country one day. She met him at the locked screen door and told him to go away. He tore through the screen door. She shot him in the sternum with a .38 special. Entrance wound was dead in line between the nipples. Jim looked down at the hole in his chest and came to the conclusion that she really meant it was over. He turned around, walked to his car, drove 15 miles to the ER, got out, walked into the ER and said,"I've been shot." When they asked where, he pointed to the center of his chest. Things got hectic for a bit.

Jim was hit dead center in his chest. The bullet exited about an inch from his spinal column. It missed the heart and the great vessels. Jim's thoracic anatomy differs from the norm. The bullet didn't fail. If Jim's heart and aorta had been where most folks keep theirs, he would have been DRT.

 

[Lonestar]

Most rounds if hitting square will penetrate the skull, of course some light FMJ pistol rounds hitting at an angle have been known to deflect. Penetrating the skull is the optimal "One Stop Shot", however a clean head shot is hard to do. COM shots are the next best option, but unlike the brain there is no automatic stop spot. A determined bad guy can still function for a few seconds with bullet in the heart or major vessel.

 

[BulletFan]

COM will make any BG reconsider their actions. Unless completely doped up on some sort of serious drug like heroin, they will stop what they are doing, realize they are shot and try to leave or fold up and die.
If this is a question concering home defense I think weapon choice will have a much great impact on the DRT effect. A 12 guage shotgun with some very stout ammo will stop any attacker dead in his tracks if a COM shot is accomplished.
If not a question of home defense and you're pondering SD shooting "in the world" than weapon choice also plays a huge part in the equation. A good .45 should do the trick in most cases.
Aiming for a specific area with the intention of inflicting paralyzing pain would do one thing, keep you tied up in court for the next decade. Shooting an attacker with the intention of stopping the attack is what keeps you out of trouble. It's called "self defense" try not to turn it into Man slaughter.

One more side note....never ever ever use your own loads in SD. Always use factory SD ammo.

 

[ShackleMeNot]

I did a lecture a few years ago about this subject. Here are some of the images and targets I used that may help this discussion. I don't remember where I got the IPSC target overlays. I'd give credit to their creator if I knew who it was.

As I wrote in my first post your best chances to do enough damage to a person who needs to be shot is to shoot them several times high in the chest or in the face.

Once you think you are sqared away with your marksmanship take a professional Force on Force class and see how well you hold up when someone is shooting back or you are being stabbed.

 

[David N]

THANKS

Thanks to Shacle Me Not for the great pics and info and all of you who replied.

 

[LightningJoe]

Shoot all his fingers off. That's why they make 10 round magazines.

 

[ctdonath]

the brain is protected by the skull - which I can't guarantee my 9mm round will penetrate

Don't think that will be a problem. Shot a cow (in a slaughterhouse) and did an autopsy - 115gr HP 9mm penetrated about 6 inches of bovine skull. Your attacker may be a bonehead, but cerebral penetration still won't be an issue with a 9mm.

 

[crofrog]

Don't think that will be a problem. Shot a cow (in a slaughterhouse) and did an autopsy - 115gr HP 9mm penetrated about 6 inches of bovine skull. Your attacker may be a bonehead, but cerebral penetration still won't be an issue with a 9mm.

There have been documented cases from all of the major handgun calibers as well as a buck shot failing to pentrate the skull...

 

[Billy_H]

I usually practice a drill I was taught by my firearms instructor..aiming for the belly button with at least double, if not triple, taps.

Shoot high and you get into the good stuff in the chest like the heart, lungs, etc. Real high and you have the throat, face and head. Low you have the pelvic girdle. Shooting left or right of center still gives you other organs, hips, femur, lungs, etc.. not to mention all the assorted major blood vessels and spinal column that run through that area. And, 3 quick shots seem to zip up nicely and cover a nice area with a lot of potential for stopping an attacker.

It's really easy to just fold a target in half from right to left, unfold, then fold the bottom 1/3 or 1/4 of the target up and unfold. Draw a line running up and down the vertical crease and another line along the horizontal crease that extends 2"-3" inches to right and left of the vertical line...the intersection of the two lines is the "belly button". (ends up looking like an upside down cross).

 

[WolfMansDad]

the brain is protected by the skull - which I can't guarantee my 9mm round will penetrate

Holy crap! Who are you planning on shooting, Klingons?

The problem with the 9mm, as I understand it, is over-penetration, not under-penetration. Even a .32 auto will penetrate the skull, both sides more often than not, I'll wager, if it is not a glancing blow.

 

[nainc]

I think a big thing to consider is SOM, state of mind. While it would be great to put a 230gr gold dot through the BG's eye socket, you may find that it's just not possible while shooting under stress. Especially if the BG is not made of paper hanging stationary 7 yds. in front of you. Take your worst group when you're trying really hard at the range (2 to 4 inches, right?); multiply that number by 4. That is likely to be your best group shooting stressed. Also, don't forget heads move quickly and unpredictably. +10 for center of mass.

 

[David N]

Why I question head shots

A friend of mine was a taxi driver in D.C. He was shot from the back seat- a distance of no more than 5 feet - and has now carried a 9mm Luger bullet in his skull for over twenty years.

We've all heard about shooting for COM and the "caridovascular triangle".

Massad Ayoob says whenever he had to hold someone at gunpoint he aimed for the pelvis because people have an instinctive fear of being shot in the groin, and a round the fractures the pelvis means the perp is down. This sparked my interest in other, less publicized places to aim for.

Having read everyone's input, I've decided to go back to concentrating on COM.

When I'm fighting for my life - as I've had to do before - I'm not too worried about what's "ethical".

 

[crofrog]

Massad Ayoob says whenever he had to hold someone at gunpoint he aimed for the pelvis because people have an instinctive fear of being shot in the groin, and a round the fractures the pelvis means the perp is down. This sparked my interest in other, less publicized places to aim for.

I doubt people will be able to tell much of a difference between you holding on there pelvis and there chest.

Further more, the pelvis is a pretty resliant structure and a handgun round reliably destroying it is fairly unlikely.

 

[jjohnson]

Way ta Go, Shacklemeknot!

Nice targets! Great advice, too! I liked the part about repeat shots.

For would be or never again victims, though:
I had a police firearms class a year ago with the target on the top in a 'running movie' with Glocks configured to shoot a laser beam and record where you "hit."
I hit the bad guy with the knife - right through his left eye - and was asked why I shot. "Because I knew it was more likely I'd kill him than him kill her that way" was the answer. Quiet room that day.

Anyway, yeah, is that even looking at the K5 zone on a silhouette target, people move around a lot - even ones who really need to be shot (somebody ELSE figure out WHO that is). Most won't hold still long enough for you to draw a bead on a really good target area, and just maybe you'll be excited, too, so most police and military train for center of mass targets and hope that when it hits the fan, they'll be able to hit a K5 area somehow. Bad guys like cover and concealment as much as you do. People involved in gunfights also tend to shoot high. Aiming for that center on the silhouette is a good thing to train for. Head shots are fine if you can get a solid one - they gotta sit still, you have to aim well, and it IS possible to get say, a .22 slug at the wrong angle and have it glance off the skull. Chances are, though, you won't have a lot of time to contemplate and lay out your best target.

If you're up for it, see if somebody in your area has a community college that has a police firearms course. Just going from the command to "draw!" and try to hit a huge silhouette target is way harder than hitting bullseyes at a regular pistol range. Study the anatomy - and practice. A lot. A great thing about repetitive training (like the Force on Force) is that you learn what works, what doesn't, and can train to a point of confidence - something very, very few folks ever do.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Humans are three dimensional structures. You have to know where vitals are located from other angles than a straight on face to face approach.

Humans are mobile structures as well. They aren't likely to be still, especially if someone is trying to shoot them.

The problems involved with what you are discussing are more than just 'insert bullet here' markings on two dimensional, non-moving targets. Think moving. Think three dimensional.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc (former EMT)