Thoracic Triangle: Raising Your Sights During SD Practice at the Range

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147 Grain

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When you go to the range and put that human silhouette out there for target practice, are you aiming for the upper Thoracic Triangle area or just center mass where the stomach is?

FYI:

The upper Thoracic Triangle is the area you should aim for because it has a greater concentration of arteries and major organs (heart & lungs) than any other part of the body. This area is generally located between the armpits (nipples) and the bottom of the neck.

Draw a line horizontally between both armpits and then (from each side) draw two more lines inwards at 45* angles towards the base of the throat. This is the vulnerable Thoracic Triangle area, where blood pressure usually drops the quickest and results in unconsciousness faster than lower center mass hits will.

(Some range targets still have the center 10-ring about 3" lower than ideal, so adjust accordingly. Others have raised the small CENTER RING up a bit over the years, but still not quite high enough - about 1 1/2" to 2" too low.)

Besides a spine or Central Nervous System (CNS) shot, this Thoracic Triangle region is the most advantageous area for multiple hits in order to immediately stop a threat. Well-placed multiple shots from any caliber into the central upper Thoracic Triangle Area is more likely to incapacitate the BG than elsewhere.

Self defense shots typically have to penetrate deeper than we typically imagine. About 2/3'rds of the time, projectiles have to travel at odd angles and it is also common for a bullet to go through a hand, arm, leg, shoulder, ribs, bones, and etc... before reaching the chest cavity that houses the vitals. Because of these factors, selecting a bullet that comes close to meeting or exceeding the FBI protocol of 12" minimum penetration is preferred in order to ensure full penetration. If your favorite handgun load typically struggles to reach 10" - 12" of penetration into Gel, 4-Ply Denim, or Heavy Cloth, consider upgrading to a bonded HP, hardcast wadcutter, or use FMJ.

All handguns are somewhat underpowered in immediately stopping threats. Unfortunately, the human body is tough / well-built and an attacker can still function / cause harm for up to 45 +/- seconds with a hit into the UPPER chest region (not shoulder); so multiple well-placed hits into the upper Thoracic Triangle area are likely needed in order to stop the threat more quickly!

Raising your sights (when practicing at the range) for self-defense situations is more apt to save your life than lower center mass shots into the upper stomach (where the 10-ring is on many human silhouette targets). Getting into the habit of aiming higher than normal during range time will put more odds in your corner should the need arise during preservation of life situations!
 
I sense a pattern in your posting habits.

I understand your want to educate, really I do, but it seems a bit more like sermonizing. *le nod*

I'd highly encourage you to check out some resources for constructing an argument. the problem with your advice is not that it is unfounded or unwarranted, but rather than there is an utter vacuum of other options. In short you have the logos down pat, but there's no ethos or pathos. Allow others to even have differing opinions than your own to convert. Simply stating "ye olde truth, as I tell it" is rarely effective, as you could probably tell from your "heavy bullet" thread.

You follow?
 
the problem with your advice is not that it is unfounded or unwarranted, but rather than there is an utter vacuum of other options.
Click to expand...

Agreed on both points; good info, but how or why should anyone respond?

There isn't much room for discussion when someone just tells others how it is.
 
While it's understandable that someone would desire to place their hits on an intended threat target in an area where it maximizes affecting critical tissues, organs and structures, there might be other factors to consider.

For example, when observing the "patterns" often seen on various silhouette or full-size photo threat targets, when many folks aim at the "center mass" they often achieve a "pattern" which includes lower and higher hits, but still on the target and often within acceptable zones used for evaluating & scoring performance.

When I've watched some folks intentionally move their aiming point from a center mass to a higher thoracic triangle/aortic arch zone, some resulting rounds which would have remained on the target when a lower aiming point had been used were now going over the threat target's shoulders. This doesn't even take into consideration any potential ducking, "hunching" or other physical movements which might occur on the part of the threat/attacker, either.

Now, factor in some movement on the part of the shooter while moving, or between moving, or having to change hands to the non-dominant hand, and a smaller/higher aiming zone might introduce the potential for some less than optimal influences and results.

I'm not talking about the potential need to make a deliberate "precision shot" at a small target area. That's another subject.

Granted, emphasis on increased training and frequent practice can mitigate and resolve a number of potential issues, but how many folks really get the chance ... or have the money and time ... to engage in the sort of training & frequent practice which might be necessary to increase their skillset to enable them to shift their aiming point, especially if already they've invested time and effort to use the common COM aiming point and have programmed it into their software and ingrained neuromuscular responses (muscle memory)?

I don't have the answer to this, BTW.

I do, however, have many years experience working with a fair number of folks who have had variable experience and skill levels, and we needed to get them to be able to maximize their potential to make controllable hits under stress, and which includes those situations where they're most likely going to be reacting to the hormonal driven fear response and whatever physical stresses/actions which may be involved and distracting them at the time.

I'd think that this subject, like many others involving training issues, would realistically and practically be something better addressed in a training environment where a student shooter can work together one-on-one with an experienced instructor to assess the student's foundation skillset and determine what might be necessary or desirable in the way of making changes.

Reading about this stuff is one thing ... and certainly interesting for many folks frequenting internet firearm forums, no doubt ... but in some ways it's like trying to learn the martial arts by reading about it. Hands-on training under the guidance of someone who can explain and correct student actions is usually a good thing.

Just my thoughts.
 
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aiming higher than normal during range time will put more odds in your corner
Click to expand...
Maybe it will, and maybe it won't.

Paper silhouette targets don't duck & cover.

The Thoracic Triangle is a lot smaller & harder to hit target then COM.
If recoil drives the gun up on the first shot, or the BG ducks, the second one will likely go over the guys shoulder (66% chance), or center punch him in the neck or face. (33% chance)
If you miss the Thoracic Triangle, you may miss entirly.

If you miss COM a little, you will still very likely hit something.
And a gut or lung shot BG is not going to be too interested in you for a while.

rc
 
Practicing good shooting drills and techniques at the range enables us to be more precise. The goal, here, is to keep in mind that in human anatomy, major organs and blood vessels are higher than is typically thought of. When your life is on the line, well-trained personnel can fall back on their instinctive habits for superiority in overcoming a threat with Tactical Intelligence (Tac-Intel) in mind (A term not used as much anymore.).

Fastbolt and others are correct about threats usually moving at odd angles and etc.... Self defense shots usually have to penetrate deeper than we typically imagine. Bullets often go through extremities such as a hand, arm, leg, shoulder, ribs, bones, and etc... before reaching the chest cavity that houses the vitals. Because of these factors, selecting a bullet that comes close to meeting or exceeding the FBI protocol of 12" minimum penetration is preferred in order to ensure full penetration.

While in training at Quantico, VA in 1987, a lot of this info was taught and drilled into our class at the FBI Academy. Unfortunately, the CCW civilian community isn't always aware of a few basic guidelines that can help put more odds in their favor.

Like many of you, I have enjoyed teaching hands-on shooting skills and etc... at the range and in the classroom environment for three decades. Thank-you for your educational efforts in helping America be informed and better trained.
 
The High Road

Little people talk about people,
Big people talk about things, ... but
Great people talk about ideas and principles!

Let's all "raise our sights" and take The High Road and "talk about ideas and principles!" Thank-you.
 
When I qual at the PD range, I shoot for the B-27's COM, tummy, the X. When I practice on my own, I aim higher. Armpit level. Throat, Nose. Or, the liver, to the right of the X. This is not new. My academy training was in 1983-1984. (Big-city PD) There has long been a disconnect between firearms range training, and safety/survival training.

The reason for this disconnect? The excuse given by the range guys, if they will acknowledge the disconnect, is that getting hits on the COM is all that many folks can grasp, and/or the best they can do under stress. IOW, the whole lesson plan caters to the lowest common denominator, or non-dedicated personnel. (LCD/NDP)

147 Grain, you are teaching valid stuff, but your style tends to rub some people's fur the wrong way. Your lines about little, big, and great people certainly does not help. You are preaching at us, from what appears to be a self-perceived superior position. Keep in mind that this forum is printed words, which do not convey body language and tone very well.
 
Thank you for that un-solicited idea and tactic. Who would have known??

But I can talk about myself, can't I (or does that make me a Little People??)?


Because I don't care where I hit 'em - with a 45 he is going down hard!! Why, even if you just wing 'em in the arm ...
 
Just encouraging folks to keep things positive and tactfully point out (without stating) the Forum's policy on personal attacks.

Talking about ourself is one thing, demeaning others is totally different. No need to read too much into things as is being done.

Let's keep the discussion on topic (taking The High Road) and leave the personal accusations in the Peanut Gallery where they belong (i.e. Little people taking the low road).

Have a good one! :)
 
Here's something else to consider....

Bullets don't always go where you think they will once they enter the human body.

One evening I was called to the morgue to obtain some radiographs on a guy that the cops shot and killed.
There were six entry wounds to the chest and upper abdomen, but no exit wounds at all.
The coroner ordered a chest film and a high abdominal film.

We located three of the slugs, two in the abdomen and one in the chest.
But we could not find the other three slugs.

We had clipped the bladder on the abdomen film so we went back and shot a low pelvis, and at the same time we got images of both upper arms, and the head and neck as well.

Sure enough, we found one of the missing slugs in the right upper arm, one in the neck, and one in the guy's scrotum.

Even though all of the rounds entered the chest and upper abdomen, three of the rounds were deflected by the anatomy and traveled to areas well outside the targeted area.

Just food for thought.

BTW, I do agree upon shooting center mass.
It just increases the odds of a hit when shooting under extreme stress.
And any hit is better than a miss.
 
The absolute best area to aim is the ocular cavity. But there's a reason it's not the primary target area, and COM is.

Larry
 
I aim and shoot, that's about it. With a B-27 or B-29 I just make sure I'm hitting where I'm aiming in tight groups at 7, 10, & 15 yards. Sometimes it's COM, other times it's the triangle, sometimes it's the arms, and other times it's the head but I'm doing it because it saves on targets. ;)
 
147, your posts DO seem a bit preachy. You basically disguised a lesson that few people already didn't know, as a question to draw attention to it. If you act this way, and then quickly duck behind the "take the high road" mantra it's sort of like playing tag with someone who randomly yells BASE (to a piece of grass) as you're about to catch him. If you were really taking the high road, the OP would've been the question and subsequent discussion it was portrayed to be. That way it would read more as a discussion among equals, not someone teaching a lesson, while slipping in tidbits to make them seem more credible. Lines like: Unfortunately, the CCW civilian community isn't always aware of a few basic guidelines that can help put more odds in their favor only serve to make it seem like you consider us simple civilians who aren't privy to your top secret commando tactical black ops ninja throat eviscerating spleen barbecuing training. Your post is obviously factual, but no one wants to feel as though they're being talked down to. I hope you haven't lost sight of the high road's true meaning.
 
So what you are saying on behalf of the Forum..........is that the High Road members are more educated than the average viewer and that a select few (who do not have enough patience to read a few things they've heard before) vent their frustration (of not finding something new) on the one helping less knowledgeable folks learn along the way.

How sad! Stephen A. Camp deserves much better. If you don't like an opinion because it's done in a different style than yours, then at least make an effort to take The High Road of restraint and look for the good points for what they're worth.
 
I've always heard it is best to lead by example. Fact is I feel some of the responses have been a bit too preachy and I'm a preacher by profession.

I've also heard that every criticism no matter how good or evil its intent had at its heart a kernel of truth (or maybe more than a kernel.)

A third thing I've heard is that when a lot of folks are telling you the same thing - maybe they're right. Not always - but it's worth a better look than just telling them off

On Topic: I train both COM and thoracic triangle. I like lots of tools in my tool box. I also have admired a cousin who trains 2 in the triangle and 1 in the T-box. On paper targets, he's eerily accurate. I don't know how well that translates to a moving target, but I wouldn't want to look down the bore of his .45
 
How about practicing shots to the hip girdle? If the BG is wearing a vest neither COM nor thoracic triangle hits may turn his switch off.

BTW-not a complete thread hijack but since you mentioned it, how does Stephen Camp figure into this?
 
I have (thank God) seldom seen such a condescending approach to a "THR" post.
If you are a sniper, and have all the time in the world to establish and choose your POI, then I have no problem with your "advice"...such as it is.

In the real world of SD, there are a number of good reasons to shoot COM. If you have ever practiced "Force on Force", you will quickly realize that your adversary is not a cardboard target standing stock-still.

In real life, he will likely be in motion (as will you, hopefully) and he will be firing back at you. In such a situation, you are well advised to go for the high percentage shot....which is COM, repeat as required. There is a reason that all LEAs, as well as any trainers of note, train to shoot COM. Percentages...

In theory, you are right...but only if the circumstance matches your theory. In reality, that is nort going to happen.
 
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