Thoracic Triangle: Raising Your Sights During SD Practice at the Range

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147 grain posted:

How sad! Stephen A. Camp deserves much better. If you don't like an opinion because it's done in a different style than yours, then at least make an effort to take The High Road of restraint and look for the good points for what they're worth.

Okay...you lost me here. Are you now saying that you're Steve Camp, or are you just dropping his name to impress the rest of us? "Camp" isn't the usual surname you use when signing off as "Steve", you know.

If you're Steve Camp, why sign in under an alias? If you're the other "Steve", then what's up with waving Steve Camp's name at people who have questions about your methods and credibility? It's an internet forum, for Pete's sake, not a classroom at Quantico.
 
hmmmf...condescending.

If you want to join in the fellowship of a board then stimulate thought not stand at the pulpit and TELL us what you know...most know this stuff man. Why not go write a wikipaper and submit that somewhere..you'll get lots of thumbs up from folks who dont really know much. COM offers the best chance to make a vital hit in a dynamic shooting situation, which most are.
 
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147 grain

147 grain aka Steve Porter has been posting on this board since 2005. Go back and look at his earlier posts and see if for one minute you believe his 30 years of firearms training and his 23 year LE career. I did and I dont. Steve you are having problems yet again on another board.........when will you stop?
 
To paraphrase an old departed liberal, a person cannot make you feel "condescended" without your permission.

Some of us are beginning to sound like some of the liberals that are always being offended or having their feelings hurt because we didn't use the proper language or tone of voice. That's my opinion - it ought be yours. :)
 
lol...believe me I can tell when someone is being condescending and not be "offended", its not worth the concern.

You know I didn't like the tone of your post...I'm gonna go cry now.
 
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You know...I did that, xcop. I saw where 147 grain had listed his age as being 50, as of 12-05-10, on a couple of other boards. So on a different board, where he announced he'd been training others on firearms for "33 years", I pointed out that would have put him up in front of the class at age 17, or so. He must have been born a master gunfighter, huh?

He immediately played it off as a "typo", and that he actually meant he'd been teaching for "23" years. Yet here on THR and other places he brags about teaching on the range and in the classroom for "three decades". Seems like old Steve makes the same "typo" over and over again. When you ask him about his "professional background", he interprets that as you're questioning his "personal details" (and demands "privacy") as if he can't tell the difference between the two.

But, hey...it's the internet. Where men are men, women are men, and 14-year-olds are FBI agents. :)
 
Hello. I was told that my name had been mentioned in this thread. Sure enough it had. I have never posted under other than my own name nor do I intend to start.

Best.
 
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This is going to sound harsh in some places.

It's valid information. Whether the guy is real, fake, or whatever, the info. is valid. It doesn't mean you need to find a reason to argue about it. It doesn't mean the idea will translate to every shooting situation, tactically. I don't know this guy from anyone else...he might be Working the drive-thru at McD's, or he could be a federal agent. I don't care, because the info is technically true. The thread can go by with no replies, or it can expound upon what is said, such as with fastbolt's post. Why on God's green Earth people need to go out of their way to put it down is beyond me.

...and not everyone knows this stuff. Believe it or not, there are still people who rely on the advice of their friends and family when they go out and buy a .454 Casull revolver as a first gun for CCW, because it is necessary...

Is this to say other points in this thread are invalid? No. You take it all, sort out the BS, and use the rest to piece the puzzle together. We all have brains capable of this.

You feel offended by the post? Get thicker skin. I don't know what is up with people here and their fragile feelings. I guess I don't try hard to find a reason to feel offended when it's not there...it's not as if anyone said we're all morons. If the thread started like this: "OK, since none of you can understand this...", I might feel offended. Otherwise, get over it.

Sorry for the rant, but there's too much mushy sensitivity around these days, and too many people who love to jump on anyone and knock them down a few pegs to feel better.
 
357Sig:

Perhaps you should grow thicker skin as well. Let the man speak for himself, I bet he's one of those people who has a "brain" and can defend his position with the content of his posts. Your fallacious reasoning is assuming that "there's too much mushy sensitivity around these days, and too many people who love to jump on anyone and knock them down a few pegs to feel better." This is your opinion and nothing more, you don't truly know that the posters in this thread are trying to knock anyone down for self edification and/or uplifting their emotional status.
 
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What I practice is a couple of things. When I practice a draw I put a target up chest high and try to present to that. If I'm drawing and going straight to a shot I probably need to make it count and its going to be close and he's nearly on top of me. If I come up and all I've got is a shoulder and he is close I'll shoot the shoulder rather than delay and seek a better shot with the second one. I'd rather get a hit on something solid right away. I'll adjust my aim on my second shot.
If my situational awareness has paid off and I've got my gun out with a bit of time I'm going COM because we probably all will be moving. I'd welcome some other thoughts on drawing and shooting.
 
"When I was in the Secret Snipers we were taught to aim for the nose. Why? Ever see somebody with their nose shot off? They look silly!"
__________________
And when you shoot the pelvic area, it make them feel inadequate. But thats a different triangle.;)
 
Perhaps you should grow thicker skin as well.
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Somehow I don't have a thick skin, based on my post???? Care to explain that one?

Let the man speak for himself, I bet he's one of those people who has a "brain" and can defend his position with the content of his posts. Your fallacious reasoning is assuming that "there's too much mushy sensitivity around these days, and too many people who love to jump on anyone and knock them down a few pegs to feel better." This is your opinion and nothing more, you don't truly know that the posters in this thread are trying to knock anyone down for self edification and/or uplifting their emotional status.
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He did speak for himself. I can still take a position to defend another, right? The point is it's silly and childish to come in here and say "I don't like the tone of your post...it offends me," when the guy clearly didn't insult or attack anyone. Boo hoo. Sounds like a bunch of whining to me. Guess you disagree.

If people get so touchy here, I'd hate to see them in face-to-face discussions.

Note that not every single poster in here is guilty of this, just some.
 
Thicker skin with regards to your possible sensitivity to others reacting differently than you. If some of the other posters and I feel he is being condescending then so be it...you make the call for yourself and we'll call it as we see it.

I never spoke of his tone, it was his words that seemed insulting. I believe you're the one who started in with your assumptions about "people knocking others down a few pegs" and then indicating that people are "boo-hooing and whining." Sounds like you need to take a good look in the mirror, you seem to be one of the whiners you are decrying. For my own part, I have seen these types of squabbles go on and on ad nauseum, and won't participate past this point, I've stated my position and this has gotten old quite quickly.
 
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................................................WoW.................................................
 
It's not a bad idea, just practice and become skilled enough to pull it off. If you can't or don't want to, shoot COM.

I've always tried to hit the top "9" on the B-27 target, seems to me to be a bit more of a vital zone. I can do it on the range, now under stress...who knows.
 
COM is actually not a bad place to start with the first shot, particularly if that shot is fired before the sights are actually aligned with one visual plane. The mistake many make is practicing to pour fire into ONLY the COM. Folks, spread the love around a bit. I noticed some of the spectacular "failures to stop" involve an LEO bravely pouring shot after shot into a perp's COM. When under extreme stress, one tends to default to one's training. I try to practice quite a bit placing one shot COM or a higher, then the second several inches higher, as a controlled pair. I will also practice to "zipper" the silhouette target from COM to nose, and then start on structural targets and the liver. Training to keep shooting COM is training to fail in those cases involving the "unstoppable" felons.

When practicing to make that one important shot, I like to concentrate high. Think aorta. Think where the aorta branches into the brachial arteries. (A quicker bleed-out tends to occur from the aorta than from a heart shot.) Think throat/trachea. Of course, always think spine, but keep in mind the necessary offset if one's adversary is not facing straight-on.

Always consider the offset. The center of the sternum is a good target when one's adversary is straight-on, but not so good if he is in a boxer's stance. Failures to stop have occurred when the defender pours fire into what the COM would be, if the perp were facing straight-on, but the defender failed to visualize the actual location of the important bits, in 3D.
 
All this does not mean a thing till you end up finding out for real. If a BG comes walking to ward you with nothing but a knife showing then shoot the upper body area. If that same guy as 5 feet out, bent over an chargeing when my pistol is cleared its going to be all COM till empty.
 
I try to practice my draw 10 times a day, after presenting I check the sights for what I'm actually aiming at.. Works out to about 5 times a week. Since this thread started I've played around with it a little. I'm finding I draw and present to where I'm looking. I'm thinking this is a good thing. Its looking like I've trained myself to being a pretty good point shooter with out really trying for that goal.
 
Now some time try to fire from lower position at a close target and see how you do. All have to pratice that as it might be more real world when shtf. Someone you need not see till allmost to late.
 
orionengnr said:
There is a reason that all LEAs, as well as any trainers of note, train to shoot COM.
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Actually, more and more training models and schools have adopted teaching this higher target zone as the aiming point. I personally know some of the trainers who re-evaulated their material and have moved their target zone as a result of the study of bullet wounds in humans. The targets used to score hits in their classes are clearly using this zone. I've seen it called Thoracic Triangle. At the NTI we call it the Cardiac Triangle. But it's the exact location he describes.


orionengnr said:
In the real world of SD, there are a number of good reasons to shoot COM. If you have ever practiced "Force on Force", you will quickly realize that your adversary is not a cardboard target standing stock-still.
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I participated in over 1,000 Force on Force exercises over the past decade, either as the Practitioner or as a Role Player. We still emphasize aiming for this triangle over "center mass".
 
I do raise my sights during self defense practice.

This thread gave me cause for reflection on the evolution of my SD training over the last few years. Several years ago, when I realized I was consuming ammunition in the four digit numbers yearly, I figured I should play a little more. By this time I could shoot pretty tight groups, with both feet planted on the shooting line. I raised my sights to what has been described as the "Thoracic Triangle". When I felt I was pretty proficient at hitting that area, I started moving around, and started practice using cover. This past summer, I bought a shot timer.

For me, shooting is about having fun. I read a lot of shooting/tactical tips for ideas I can incorporate into my practice sessions. There are a lot of "preachy" folks out there. But, many of them have good ideas. Some of them have been published and are considered in some circles to be experts. If 147 Grain (or any of the rest of y'all) give a new shooter some good info, good for him/you.

All this talk of shooting has made my trigger finger itch. I think I'll go scratch it.
 
For me, shooting is about having fun.
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Well said. While it may turn into a very crucial skill so would a number of other things I don't do or don't do anymore. As I slide into my mid 50s I look at it very differently than I did in my 20s.
 
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