Jeb Stuart
member
Now I know where the phrase "Bored to death" comes from.
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40 caliber works better
With regards to self defense shooting how many of those things are actually under your control that aren't related to caliber?Too many more important things to worry about before you get to caliber...........
That's a twofold dumb statement,first making them dead isn't the goal it's to get them to stop trying to make you dead. Second doing so faster is pretty much universally accepted as a good idea so levels of how fast they expire are very important.
It's why we don't just carry 22s coated with a toxin, that would have a much higher mortality rate but having the BG die a week after me and my family isn't a good goal.
I understand your point but I completely disagree. If you are not intent on killing the individual why would you shoot them? Do you want to get attacked or shot by them a second time? Better get yourself a stun gun if you have that attitude going into a gunfight. As the pirate at Disneyland says “dead men tell no tales”
Dang, this thread stayed up long enough that it has gotten me to go back & re-watch Paul Harrell caliber comparison videos.
So you're only intent is to kill someone?I understand your point but I completely disagree. If you are not intent on killing the individual why would you shoot them? Do you want to get attacked or shot by them a second time? Better get yourself a stun gun if you have that attitude going into a gunfight. As the pirate at Disneyland says “dead men tell no tales”
People need to get at a range and just start shooting more rather than comparing which caliber. Maybe many do need to carry a Stun Gun. Especially those that spend so much time comparing calibers. Went to the range today and shot a whole lot of rounds out of a 380, and I would not bet that I could not incapacitate you very quickly
I never worry about caliber, I just shoot them in the hand. (and I never draw first)
Closer to zero than the number in a caliber.With regards to self defense shooting how many of those things are actually under your control that aren't related to caliber?
I understand your point but I completely disagree. If you are not intent on killing the individual why would you shoot them? Do you want to get attacked or shot by them a second time? Better get yourself a stun gun if you have that attitude going into a gunfight. As the pirate at Disneyland says “dead men tell no tales”
Seriously, when I see threads such as these, I just go back and re-read this:
Terminal Ballistics as viewed in a morgue.htm
I wonder how many people who will argue and rant and get all angry over caliber wars have declined to read that?
I've noticed that more and more frequently, people seem to not want to learn the truth, or be educated, or even be civil. They just want to argue and insult.
My take after reading that is that 9mm works most of the time, as does .40 and .45. But that 9mm fails to work much more frequently than .40 or .45.
Also, it would seem that the .357 Sig should be the ultimate self-defense round, due to his opinion that a 125gr bullet going 1200fps seems to be a magic formula. But it isn't because people don't like the cost and the recoil.
Very interesting read and took up about an hour or so of my time.
About a year ago or so a guy over on 1911 Forums posted a story of a crazed guy attacking his house, banging on the door and breaking windows - he was really trying to get in. The guy grabs his trusty 9mm and shoots the guy - nothing. Has absolutely no effect. The guy keeps smashing stuff and the guy keeps shooting at him to no avail. El Crazo finally makes his way into the guy's car which is parked outside. Now the homeowner tried to shot through the windshield but it was deflected. Finally the cops got there and arrested the guy who told the cops he was Death. One of his morals of the story was "if you think 9mm is good enough - you don't know what you're talking about". It was pretty powerful coming from him after the story.
I found the story: https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=689905
Me I've always thought that 9mm was weak, especially after the Miami Shootout. I can't comment on .40 as I've never had or shot one, in fact I've never shot a 9mm handgun either. Just not interested. "Cheaper" and "good enough" aren't reasons (to me) to carry it when there is better out there. All my carry and SD guns are 45 acp as well as 10mm. Maybe 9mm has gotten better, but the crazed dude in that story sure didn't care.
Me, I'll keep carrying what has become my go-to gun, a XD-45 that holds 13+1 rounds of .45 Felon Repellant. With an extra mag it's plenty of ammo for me. I've been shooting .45 since the 80's and I'll stick with it.
About a year ago or so a guy over on 1911 Forums posted a story of a crazed guy attacking his house, banging on the door and breaking windows - he was really trying to get in. The guy grabs his trusty 9mm and shoots the guy - nothing. Has absolutely no effect. The guy keeps smashing stuff and the guy keeps shooting at him to no avail. El Crazo finally makes his way into the guy's car which is parked outside. Now the homeowner tried to shot through the windshield but it was deflected. Finally the cops got there and arrested the guy who told the cops he was Death. One of his morals of the story was "if you think 9mm is good enough - you don't know what you're talking about". It was pretty powerful coming from him after the story.
I found the story: https://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=689905
Me I've always thought that 9mm was weak, especially after the Miami Shootout. I can't comment on .40 as I've never had or shot one, in fact I've never shot a 9mm handgun either. Just not interested. "Cheaper" and "good enough" aren't reasons (to me) to carry it when there is better out there. All my carry and SD guns are 45 acp as well as 10mm. Maybe 9mm has gotten better, but the crazed dude in that story sure didn't care.
Me, I'll keep carrying what has become my go-to gun, a XD-45 that holds 13+1 rounds of .45 Felon Repellant. With an extra mag it's plenty of ammo for me. I've been shooting .45 since the 80's and I'll stick with it.
I wonder how many people who will argue and rant and get all angry over caliber wars have declined to read that?
I've noticed that more and more frequently, people seem to not want to learn the truth, or be educated, or even be civil. They just want to argue and insult.
My take after reading that is that 9mm works most of the time, as does .40 and .45. But that 9mm fails to work much more frequently than .40 or .45.
Also, it would seem that the .357 Sig should be the ultimate self-defense round, due to his opinion that a 125gr bullet going 1200fps seems to be a magic formula. But it isn't because people don't like the cost and the recoil.
Very interesting read and took up about an hour or so of my time.
Problem with that is, again dead isn't the objective and hard to tell when they're on the slab how they acted between the time they were shot and the slab.
Nope not missed, just not really that valuable. Humans aren't jello and vary widely in composition I would have never assumed that bullets act in tissue exactly like they do in gel. But I also think it's extremely naive to ignore ballistic gel tests as they are an excellent way of comparing performance in a controlled way.You may have missed a valuable nugget from this information, mavracer. It is useful to understand what kind of effect various calibers have upon the actual human torso vs. ballistic gelatin.
I recall that thread, thanks for bringing it up.
Couple notes. There is nothing in evidence that a .45 or .40 would have proved any more effective in those circumstances. Sure we can argue they might not have deflected on the two instances due to momentum, but we can't know. We also have plenty of other anecdotal stories of both the "4" calibers failing to stop crazed people.
Would a bigger caliber have helped? Maybe. But we can't know.
I recall the takeaway I had was to critically think about how the situation went down and to have more ammo available, especially for HD.
IIRC the OP of that story still said they carry a 9mm, afterwards