45/70 ammo

[jval]

I don't see any discussion that points out the limit, pressure, etc differences between the old 130+ year old trapdoors and the new, presumably stronger new and safer replicas. Also, I'm reading on this board that old Trapdoor barrels have relatively soft steel barrels and therefore like lead vs JHPs. If that's true, then JHPs should be OK in new replicas. Please confirm or refute what I'm assuming. thank you.

 

[tark]

. I shoot the Speer 400 grain JSP in my Springfield rifle, over 80 grains of 3f Swiss

Can you tell us where you got the magic wand that enables you to get 80 grains of 3F into a modern 45-70 case under a 400 gr. bullet? Lol. I can't get anywhere close to 70. Does Harry Potter have something to do with this??

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I made the magic wand out of a dowel, and a 357 case. I put that into the seating die, instead of a bullet, and compress the powder down to where I want it. The Speer JSP 400 grain bullet is also a little bit, or a medium bit shorter than the cast 400 grain bullets. Hope that helps! I also do a magic tap-dance, where I gently tap the case when it is full of powder, on the table/bench/desk top for a while to settle the powder.

 

[entropy]

Would federal premium 45/70 300 grain hammer down ammo be ok to shoot in a Springfield 45/70 trapdoor rifle?

The answer is self-evident in the question; and it is NO.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I don't see any discussion that points out the limit, pressure, etc differences between the old 130+ year old trapdoors and the new, presumably stronger new and safer replicas. Also, I'm reading on this board that old Trapdoor barrels have relatively soft steel barrels and therefore like lead vs JHPs. If that's true, then JHPs should be OK in new replicas. Please confirm or refute what I'm assuming. thank you.

Unfortunately one does have to make assumptions on those points. Not sure anyone could truly confirm or refute. I think it's safe to assume that barrel steel is superior to what was used to make M1973 Springfield barrels. I shoot a very limited number of JSP's in my Trapdoor rifle, none in my carbine. I don't know if it's true that JSP's will wear out an old barrel, but assume it's smart to play it safe on that point. (even though it seems "dubious" that a copper alloy could wear down steel. Maybe after many thousands of rounds?) I don't understand how they would wear out a modern barrel. I would not worry about using jacketed bullets in a replica rifle.

The Springfield had somewhat shallow rifling to begin with, and most if not almost all of the old rifles seem to have plenty of rifling left to shoot well. Most used barrels all seem to have good rifling, if they have not been rusted. That kind of indicates to me that those old barrels could not have been that soft. You might find rusted out barrels, but I've not seen or heard of many worn out ones.

I forget what the pressure limit is for an original Trapdoor, but remember that if you duplicate that limit with smokeless powder, you are not duplicating the pressure curve, which can be much steeper. I prefer black powder, and would never shoot smokeless in my Springfield rifles, but I'd be "okay" with it in a replica. But if I had a replica, I'd still shoot black in it just because I can't think of any reason not to. I have plenty of other rifles to shoot smokeless in.

 

[Mn Fats]

I absolutely hate threads like this. A bunch of folks make the same poor assumption, and bad advice is pushed out into the cyberverse forever.

That's insane. OP asked a simple question. Sorry to hear some folks touched you off.

Threads like these are necessary. Dispelling info, confirming info.

 

[vintovka]

Nothing but dead soft lead and 50 grains 3f + cornmeal or cornstarch in any of mine. This includes the Original Rem Buffalo rifle, any of the trapdoors or the Peabody Or the Danish RB. Enough for accuracy, fun and boom minus the worry These are worth too much and parts are now for sure very expensive, May add some modern trapdoor replicas are reported to have issues with high pressure loads and (pardon the pun) keeping your trap shut.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

I guess instead of "keep your powder dry", '73 Springfield shooters be like: "Keep Your Trap Shut"!!!

 

[Charlie98]

I don't see any discussion that points out the limit, pressure, etc differences between the old 130+ year old trapdoors and the new, presumably stronger new and safer replicas. Also, I'm reading on this board that old Trapdoor barrels have relatively soft steel barrels and therefore like lead vs JHPs. If that's true, then JHPs should be OK in new replicas. Please confirm or refute what I'm assuming. thank you.

As I mentioned in your other thread on the subject... look to the manufacturer...

This is a direct image from the Pedersoli website, specifically for their newly manufactured Trapdoor rifles...



Note in #1 that it says to not exceed 18K CUP... and with Black Powder only. I posted this previously... but I'm kind of thinking it's erroneous, or perhaps 'not complete' would be a better phrase. Further up in the instruction book, which covers all their cartridge rifles, is this note for their reproduction Roller...



...which states you can use commercial smokeless ammos not loaded over 29K CUP (or PSI.) The section for the Sharps rifle also says the same basic thing, and for the 1885, which I happen to own.

Me thinks either there was an omission within the Trapdoor information, or they don't consider the Trappy... even with modern metals and construction... to be able to withstand modern smokeless pressure. Another oddity... and I don't really know, because I've never seen one... is they (Pedersoli) might actually kick out rifles specifically stamped 'Black Powder Only.'

As far as jacketed bullets in modern replicas...? Sure, why not?

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Someone posted that 28000psi was the SAMMI spec, but I'm pretty sure you are more on track with the 18000psi for trapdoors, and for some reason I used to think it was only 14000psi. ? 28000 is very high, probably only really produced when loading up the really big sharps cartridges with black powder. Popping off of .45-70 cartridge loaded with smokeless powder, producing that kind of pressure does not sound all the smart to me.

 

[Show Me]

Original trapdoors should only shoot lead if you want to save the rifling

 

[Ugly Sauce]

Not too long ago I was looking at Springfield barrels, as I have a rust pit in my rifle, just ahead of the chamber, and I was thinking about re-barreling it. I noticed that spare barrels were not hard to find, and not expensive. I'd love to see an experiment of shooting a couple of hundred rounds through one, maybe 500, JSP loads and see if there was any measurable wear on the bore.

 

[Edcnh]

If it were me I would not shoot anything except lead bullets out of a rifle over 100 years old. Lyman reloading manuals have a special section for reloading at trapdoor velocities.

 

[crest117]

I have two trapdoors and shoot both often. I use a 405 grain HiTek coated bullet and 28 grains of H4198. This load is quite low pressure and approximates the original black powder load. Be aware that the lowest setting on a trapdoors sights will be for about 200 yards so it will shoot more than a foot high at 100 yards.

 

[Ugly Sauce]

If it were me I would not shoot anything except lead bullets out of a rifle over 100 years old. Lyman reloading manuals have a special section for reloading at trapdoor velocities.

If I were me, I'd shoot lead bullets in my rifle 99.52% of the time, but I'd shoot a few of my Marlin loads (black powder) with the Speer 400 grain JSP just to make sure it was sighted in for them, in case I wanted to take it hunting. I've probably shot half a dozen total out of the rifle, the carbine I just stick with the standard 45-70-405 rifle load. I still think it would take a few hundred rounds or more of jacketed bullets to see any wear on the bore. I'm not sure why anyone would shoot smokeless out of a 150 year old, black powder cartridge rifle, but...whatever!