45-70 Black Powder Reloading

[Texasgrillchef]

I understand that this cartridge was originally developed for 70 grains of black powder.
I have seen two different charts one using FFF and another one using F.

two questions.

For what grain bullet was the 70grains developed for? I am assuming possibly incorrectly a 250g soft cast.

What I am actually wanting to find is black powder load data for 300, 350, 405, and 500 grain hard cast.

I have done a search, but haven’t found very much useful other then adds for stuff.

 

[Englishmn]

All the bp that you can cram a given bullet on top of. At least enough to fill the case to where the base of the bullet will be, slightly compressed is better.
Black powder is done by volume not weight as density does vary between types.

 

[badkarmamib]

From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45-70):

The new cartridge was completely identified as the .45-70-405, but was also referred to as the ".45 Government" cartridge in commercial catalogs. The nomenclature of the time was based on three properties of the cartridge:

• .45: nominal diameter of bullet, measured in decimal inches, i.e., 0.458 inches (11.63 mm);
• 70: weight of black powder, measured in grains, i.e., 70 grains (4.56 g);
• 405: weight of lead bullet, measured in grains, i.e., 405 grains (26.2 g).

 

[Jimster]

I’ve always filled the case in all my bp cartridge reloading. 44-40, 45Colt and 45-70. I doubt you’ll fit 70 gr of bp into a 45-70 case though. Maybe 65-68 or so.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

F, FF, or FFF?

 

[Reeferman]

What gun are you wanting to load for? I highly suggest you pickup one of the many Loading black cartridge books out there. If you want information on the original 45/70 I suggest getting the one by Pat Wolf.

 

[AJC1]

F is like cannon powder
FF is slow rifle where I think you would be
FFF might also work
FFFF VERY FINE PISTOL POWDER.
This is what I was taught about black powder for a 45/70 and then told to never use it. I have fired a few BP rounds out of a guys sharps and it was cool. Waiting for the cloud to clear after the round went off.

 

[troy fairweather]

FF and 1.5f are best original load was 70 grains and a 405 grain. But that is with a balloon head case you won't get that much in the case even with a drop tube. The very early 45/70 used foil cases. 1/8 inch of compression seems to work out good with bp. For longer barrels it maybe a good idea to use a lube cookie. But I make wads from orange juice box. Plus two paper wads to keep the thick wads from sticking to the bullet and hurting accuracy.

 

[Old Stumpy]

In very old hand-held loading tools, the case was only crimped and not resized.
And there was no crimp groove, so the crimp was over the top driving band.
This being allowed by a reduced diameter nose section.
So, a full case of 70 grains compressed would be needed to support the bullet if the cartridge was to feed through a lever action where magazine tension and inertia might otherwise telescope the bullet inwards.
Of course, cardboard wads were used to take up space if a lesser charge was desired, such as with the .45-55-405 carbine load.

 

[DocRock]

Given modern cartridge manufacturing, fitting 70 grs of BP, regardless of granularity, with anything more than a lightweight collar button bullet would require degrees of compression not normally associated with optimal accuracy.

As to what might work best in your application, a little info on what rifle and purpose would help.

A single shot, longer barrel rifle - often referred to as a “buffalo gun”, such as a Sharps, Rolling Block or 1885 Win, for example, might best be approached with 1.5 Fg powder, filled to the bullet base after 1/8” compression with room for a lube cookie to mitigate fouling, under a pure lead bullet sizes about .002” greater than groove depth and weighing in the 400 - 500 grs range. A lever gun may want a similar charge but perhaps a sub 400 grs bullet, and, depending on barrel length, maybe 2FFg powder would suit.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Marlin 1895sbl
50 and 100 yard target
And 50yard coyote and hog

 

[DocRock]

Marlin 1895sbl
50 and 100 yard target
And 50yard coyote and hog

NICE!

Relatively light rifle, short barrel and short ranges would suggest the following:

No need for a 500 grs monster, so a good 300+ grs bullet that will feed well in a lever action. My recommendation would be:
RCBS 82045 - 325 grs plain base, order with SPG (black powder) lube, sized .458"
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-rcbs-82045-325gr-fn-universal/
or, Lyman 457191- 292 - plain base with SPG lube .458"
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-lyman-457191-292gr-fn-bb/

Using large pistol primers (BP very easy to ignite) load 2FFg (I like Olde Eynsford for consistency) so that with 1/8" compression of the powder (can be done with a dowel (marked for depth) pressing on a .460" ca rd wad - or for better consistency, Buffalo Arms has an adjustable powder compression die) there is just enough room for a dollop - a ball in size between a pepper corn and a dried pea, for example - of BP lube, then another .460" card wad and the bullet seated on top of that so that there is no space between bullet, card and powder etc. A taper crimp that takes the bell out of the case mouth but doesn't deform the bullet base in any way will be best.

This is a good place to start. For best accuracy, you may adjust seating depth a bit, and play with compression. Tips: Don't over compress powder and don't use bullet seating to achieve compression. Ideally, the bullet would virtually hand seat under slight pressure and come to rest on the top card wad at the desired seating depth. In reality, a little pressure to final seating depth is normal but too much pressure can deform the bullet. Don't get too focused on powder. You will hear it must be done by volume not weight. This is not true when using the same powder. A volume throw, like a Lee Dipper is fine, but try to get it consistent in scooping. One way to do this is to take several scoops of powder, attempting to be consistent in how much you scoop. Weigh them to see if you are consistent. Unlike smokeless, a couple of grains either way per throw doesn't really matter. More than four grains, work on consistency.

It's awesome that you are going to shoot yotes with BP in this rifle! Good luck and enjoy!

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

Get the Lyman Cast bullet manual and your questions will be answered.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

NICE!

Relatively light rifle, short barrel and short ranges would suggest the following:

No need for a 500 grs monster, so a good 300+ grs bullet that will feed well in a lever action. My recommendation would be:
RCBS 82045 - 325 grs plain base, order with SPG (black powder) lube, sized .458"
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-rcbs-82045-325gr-fn-universal/
or, Lyman 457191- 292 - plain base with SPG lube .458"
https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-lyman-457191-292gr-fn-bb/

Using large pistol primers (BP very easy to ignite) load 2FFg (I like Olde Eynsford for consistency) so that with 1/8" compression of the powder (can be done with a dowel (marked for depth) pressing on a .460" ca rd wad - or for better consistency, Buffalo Arms has an adjustable powder compression die) there is just enough room for a dollop - a ball in size between a pepper corn and a dried pea, for example - of BP lube, then another .460" card wad and the bullet seated on top of that so that there is no space between bullet, card and powder etc. A taper crimp that takes the bell out of the case mouth but doesn't deform the bullet base in any way will be best.

This is a good place to start. For best accuracy, you may adjust seating depth a bit, and play with compression. Tips: Don't over compress powder and don't use bullet seating to achieve compression. Ideally, the bullet would virtually hand seat under slight pressure and come to rest on the top card wad at the desired seating depth. In reality, a little pressure to final seating depth is normal but too much pressure can deform the bullet. Don't get too focused on powder. You will hear it must be done by volume not weight. This is not true when using the same powder. A volume throw, like a Lee Dipper is fine, but try to get it consistent in scooping. One way to do this is to take several scoops of powder, attempting to be consistent in how much you scoop. Weigh them to see if you are consistent. Unlike smokeless, a couple of grains either way per throw doesn't really matter. More than four grains, work on consistency.

It's awesome that you are going to shoot yotes with BP in this rifle! Good luck and enjoy!

Thanks!

 

[Rob Starline]

I always used FF powder, with a slightly compressed load. I can’t remember how much powder, you will just need to experiment. It’s not like smokeless where it’s easy to overcharge, but you don’t want to leave an air gap. After shooting I would pop out the primer then wash the brass and dry out well, I would then run thru a tumbler, everyone has there own way on that, just clean the brass right away if you want it to last. The most used bullet is the 405 grain one. I used heavier ones but unless you have a long barrel, there’s no sense in it. I used to have a Sharps, never did use a lever in 45-70.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Would one use the same load of black powder for a 300g hard cast lead?
What about a 300gr Speer JHP or 405g JHP.

I ask cause I have several hundred of each of those Speer JHP projectiles I received for free!

 

[DocRock]

Black powder wants soft lead. For hardcast or jacketed, smokeless powder is a better choice. Also, 45-70 bullets are .458”. Speer HPs are likely pistol caliber, .452”.

 

[AJC1]

For those that dont know if you use black powder cases with smokeless you may have a bad day. Found one in my range pickups and it reminded me to be careful. It went right in the trash, not worth the risk having it around

 

[Reeferman]

For those that dont know if you use black powder cases with smokeless you may have a bad day. Found one in my range pickups and it reminded me to be careful. It went right in the trash, not worth the risk having it around

You have to explain that.

 

[AJC1]

The old original black powder cases had much thinner webs.

 

[troy fairweather]

Those original cases are long gone.

 

[Old Stumpy]

Those original cases are long gone.

True, but surprisingly, Dominion in Canada (also long gone) was loading .455 Colt smokeless loads in balloon head Mark I Webley cases until around 1975.

 

[troy fairweather]

True, but surprisingly, Dominion in Canada (also long gone) was loading .455 Colt smokeless loads in balloon head Mark I Webley cases until around 1975.

View attachment 889611

I have a few balloon head 45/70 cases and have loaded them well past what is safe for a marlin. The primer pockets open after 3 or 4 loads but they held.

 

[Reeferman]

I’d sure like to find some of the balloon head cases laying around ranges where I shoot. However I have loaded non balloon head cases with black powder or smokeless and there is no issues doing so.
I’ve shot a ton of Dominion Ammo in a lot of different calibers over the years but don’t think you will find many of those 455 loaded or empty cases around much.