45-70 for home defense

[Greg Koziol]

I wonder if i could get some 250 grain hollow point loads for them, or 250 grain soft point, that would be the best

 

[Greg Koziol]

I guess its just too powerful of a rifle, designed for big game, will penetrate through human intruders like shooting thru sheet rock.

 

[Maverick223]

I wonder if i could get some 250 grain hollow point loads for them, or 250 grain soft point, that would be the best

For HD a good defense type 230gr. (or 185gr.) HP designed for the .45ACP would probably work well despite the disparity in diameter (.452cal. instead of .458in.). It would both be lighter constructed for lesser penetration and promote proper expansion/fragmentation for better effectiveness. I would expect mediocre accuracy due to the deviation in caliber, but certainly good enough for home defense applications. I would still drive it at moderate velocities, not because it would further limit penetration (not necessarily true with expanding type rounds), but rather to make the rifle more controllable for faster follow-up shots.

 

[rcmodel]

I would expect nearly insurmountable problems reloading them with 45-70 reloading dies. .452" pistol bullets would fall down inside the case before you could crimp them in place.

The .006" difference would mean a very loose case neck tension, and no amount of crimp would keep them from being driven into the cases in the tube magazine by spring pressure & recoil.

The other thing is, they would be way shorter then standard 45-70 loads, and lever-guns like to feed standard length ammo best.

rc

 

[KBintheSLC]

HP designed for the .45ACP would probably work well despite the disparity in diameter (.452cal. instead of .458in.)

You should volunteer to be our guinea pig.
I know I wouldn't mess around with a 0.006" difference. The accuracy would likely be horrendous, and the burn bleeding past the bullet would be a waste of perfectly good powder.

 

[Maverick223]

I would expect nearly insurmountable problems reloading them with 45-70 reloading dies. .452" pistol bullets would fall down inside the case before you could crimp them in place.

Perhaps, I have never attempted it...and I neither own a lever action chambered for .45-70Govt. (though I do have plans for one), nor handload for a .45cal. pistol. If someone wants to send me a few .452cal. bullets I will happily load them up and give 'em a whirl in my falling block, then report back with the results. Though I don't even crimp at all, because it is a falling block...though I would simply not fully use the expander die to get proper tension.

You should volunteer to be our guinea pig.

Send me a couple boolits and i'll give 'em a ride.

I know I wouldn't mess around with a 0.006" difference. The accuracy would likely be horrendous, and the burn bleeding past the bullet would be a waste of perfectly good powder.

Self defense range is very close so accuracy wouldn't be a dire issue, and while it may not be the most efficient I also feel that it will have more than enough oomph to pop out the muzzle with authority (though the blast would probably be bad, if the perpetrator runs off you'll be able to find the guy...because he'll be set ablaze ).

 

[336A]

Quote:
HP designed for the .45ACP would probably work well despite the disparity in diameter (.452cal. instead of .458in.)

You should volunteer to be our guinea pig.
I know I wouldn't mess around with a 0.006" difference. The accuracy would likely be horrendous, and the burn bleeding past the bullet would be a waste of perfectly good powder.

+1^^^^ Not only that you will be getting some very sooty cases and a filthy chamber. As you are firing a smaller bullet vs a properly sized bullet the cartridge case will not conform to the chamber thereby sealing it from the gases and powder. By firing the smaller Diameter bullet pressure will be less, the brass won't swell to conform to the chamber thus allowing the hot gases and unburnt powder into the chamber. IIRC correctly that is known as blowby or blow back. Happy cleaning if you decide to go that route.

 

[Cypress]

My 1895G is my go to defense gun against crippled hogs in thick brush. The cheap Rem 300 gr HP's work great. They penetrate nicely at Remington's velocity but like most other bullets in the 45-70 they waste most of the energy on the ground or bystanders. Load them up to 2300-2400fps and they are a whole different animal. They EXPLODE on impact. I shot a small pig last year at approximately 15 feet broadside and literally spun the pig around. Upon investigation I found a entrance hole that you could fit a baseball cleanly into and no exit. The off shoulder was undamaged except for a little bloodshot meat where some jacket frags ended up. It was almost impossible to believe from a 45-70. I now use these rounds exclusively when I go into the thick stuff. No doubt some of the bullet would exit a human target but IMHO would be merely shrapnel at that point. I encourage anyone here with a 45-70 to give this a try.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

Warn your neighbors for sure!

Yeah, that way they will know to duck when the bullet flies through their house.

You know, I have shot 2 hogs, both over 200 lbs, with Leverevolution 325 gr. (~1850 fps out of my rifle) and neither overpenetrated the hogs. So for fat intruders, I think the round would be nice. For skinny tweekers, you need to wait until they are lined up.

 

[Maverick223]

for skinny tweekers, you need to wait until they are lined up.

lol

 

[Greg Koziol]

I saw Barnes makes a 250 grain bullet for .45-70's, it's a .458 or .459 diameter i think. There was even a website that was selling mild 250 grain 45-70 loads, i'll see if i can find the link, they were too mild like 2100 fps or something which is why they didn't catch my interest

 

[Maverick223]

I saw Barnes makes a 250 grain bullet for .45-70's, it's a .458 or .459 diameter i think.

I doubt that would do any better (perhaps worse) than a 300gr., the lower sectional density will help, but most Barnes projectiles are well constructed which will also increase penetration. This in an odd instance where you really want something that has poor weight retention (if too great of penetration is a concern).

 

[Greg Koziol]

the 300 grain hollow points are pretty soft, though I bet they can blow through a human sized target, i've heard they blow through some small deer, I think a big deer and bear is where the 300 grain hollow points don't pass through.

 

[Dr.Rob]

Well if its ALL you have it's better than a sharp stick but take a look over at BOX OF TRUTH for a look see at what the average .45/70 does compared to other more suitable HD tools.

 

[Greg Koziol]

Actually if your in a rural area it has some advantages over say an AR or a handgun or shotgun.

1) it's fast cycling, faster than a pump shotgun
2) you can blow through walls, doors, cars, small trees and thick vegetation with ease
3) heavy bullet eliminates needs for follow up shots
4) longer range than a 12 gauge with buckshot and probably more accurate than any slug even out of a rifled barrel, if your using good hand loads or buffalo bore type ammo, not the downloaded remington ammo
5) fairly compact
6) high shot capacity

 

[dogngun]

I used a load of 3031 topped with the Hornaday 300 grain JHP. I practiced on groundhogs with it in my Marlin 1895. It stops them in their tracks, but it kind of smooshes them all up.

Really, I'd recommend a pistol caliber lever gun or a .30-30/.35 Rem Marlin at the top.

(I use an old Chinese SKS with hollow points and several 12 gauges.)
(And a 1911)
mark

 

[StrawHat]

Hornandy makes a 300 grain JHP and Lyman still catalogs the 457122 mold (330 grain HP) so you could load your own ammo. I use the 457122 on deer and it gives complete penetration. Not sure I'd use it for HD but if that's all you have at hand...

 

[alemonkey]

If you're set on using a 45-70 look up the "guard load" that the U.S. Military used in old trapdoor Springfields issued to POW camp guards. Three .45 cal lead balls loaded into the case. I would prefer a 12 gauge with 00 buck but I think it would be better than a .45 pistol bullet in a 45-70 case.

 

[Badlander]

Load that 45-70 up with some hot 525gr Beartooth piledrivers. Use it to kill the bad guys car.

 

[valorius]

Pretty poorly since pistol "45 caliber" bullets are .452 and rifle "45 caliber" bullets are .458.

My knowledge of .45-70 bullet diameters is obviously limited.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

is this home protection against Grizzly bears? hope you aint got no neighbors, get ya a shotgun with buckshot, save yourself some headaches and maybe legal problems if you dust your neighbor accidentally.

 

[flashhole]

Shortly after I purchased my Guide Gun in 98' I wanted to see how it performed with Remington 405 grain lead bullet factory loads. I had my target mounted on a 6"x6" post that was in front of a tree about 12" in diameter. Behind the tree were three 55 gallon drums (empty) and behind them a hill.

The fired shot was from 75 yards. The bullet went through the center of the target (darn good shot with open sights), through the 6x6, through the tree, through the three 55 gallon drums, and I dug it out of the hill where it had burried itself about 10" deep in moist soil. The bullet was hardly malformed. Keep in mind the factory loads are suitable for older Springfield actions and not "hot" when compared to modern action loads. I developed an immediate appreciation for the penetrating power of a large lead slug moving at moderate velocities. That experience is why I opt for a 12 gauge with buckshot for home defense.

 

[Greg Koziol]

is this home protection against Grizzly bears? hope you aint got no neighbors, get ya a shotgun with buckshot, save yourself some headaches and maybe legal problems if you dust your neighbor accidentally.

LOL i have a shotgun, but It's a hunting shotgun with a rifled barrel and a field barrel. Plus i'm better with my lever gun. I've always admired the wild west days, when you had one gun and one pistol and it was used from everything from home/ranch defense, gun battles with marauders, and bear and big game hunting.

 

[Greg Koziol]

Shortly after I purchased my Guide Gun in 98' I wanted to see how it performed with Remington 405 grain lead bullet factory loads. I had my target mounted on a 6"x6" post that was in front of a tree about 12" in diameter. Behind the tree were three 55 gallon drums (empty) and behind them a hill.

The fired shot was from 75 yards. The bullet went through the center of the target (darn good shot with open sights), through the 6x6, through the tree, through the three 55 gallon drums, and I dug it out of the hill where it had burried itself about 10" deep in moist soil. The bullet was hardly malformed. Keep in mind the factory loads are suitable for older Springfield actions and not "hot" when compared to modern action loads. I developed an immediate appreciation for the penetrating power of a large lead slug moving at moderate velocities. That experience is why I opt for a 12 gauge with buckshot for home defense.

true, i see your in oswego ny, i used to have a buddy from there, I was there once when they open all the bars in down town.. its like mini mardi gras

 

[Snowdog]

quicker then a pump shotgun

Have you ever seen anyone empty a 1897 Winchester fast?
I can unload my 1897 in short order as the trigger can be held down and the shotgun fires when the action closes. It fires as fast as you can pump, but it's difficult to control and inefficient, IMO... but man is it ever speedy.

I'd also choose it over a .45-70 for anything within 25 yards.