45-70 govt vs 500 smith and wesson

[Maverick223]

I say 3,600 because I like to keep my loads (per Hodgdens site) to around 38,000 cup (which is about 40,000 psi... a bit under the MAX for a margin of safety))

Perhaps I am calculating something a bit wrong...but my loads for my .45-70 should well exceed 40kPSI (fine for my particular rifle...good way to blow up others), and I came up with about 3900ft/lbs of energy with a 300gr. projectile...the larger (really longer) the projectile the less powder without significantly increasing pressure (due to the smaller case volume)...and therefore less energy or DANGEROUS conditions. I really do need to invest in a nice chrony so I can pinpoint my velocity, but I am running 62gr. of RL-7 with a 300gr. slug out of a 28" bbl (try this at your own [strike]risk[/strike] peril ).

You really can't go wrong with any of the choices you've already mentioned. In my .375H&h I use 300gr Barnes TSX and BBS. IN the .450-120 the same in a .450 Gr choice would be great as would any selection from North Fork, Woodleigh Swift A-frame ETC ETC.

Thank you for the advice, I have been thinking about it for a while, but haven't really decided whether I want bone crushing mass or smaller projectiles that offer a boost in speed and therefore hydrostatic shock. IMO the .375H&H is a no-brainer (not to suggest it is incapable of a effective brainer...), as it offers enough speed for any reasonable weight, so go with something at least 300gr. and preferably a little heavier.

My Lott is on loan to a writer and I haven't seen it back in several years.

Sounds like instead of buying a new .375H&H all I need to do is "borrow" one from you.

 

[Gryffydd]

So... Nobody using the .50 BMG over there?

 

[Maverick223]

So... Nobody using the .50 BMG over there?

You can always download...a lot (go from one canister of powder per round...to a little...only a half).

 

[Gryffydd]

You can always download...a lot.

Well, then what would the payoff be for lugging around a 30lb rifle?

 

[Maverick223]

Well, then what would the payoff be for lugging around a 30lb rifle?

Bodybuilding.

I am not advocating the use of it (as I am sure you aren't either)...just pickin'.

 

[saturno_v]

H&H

I'm glad you put some sanity in this thread!! Amen to that!!

Thank you!!


I was trying to say the same thing you did over and over and these gentlemen would non budge....finally they came to their senses.

So guys, again for the -nth time over and over....all else being equal (bullet shape, solid, etc..) the faster round penetrate better...got that???!!! There is no "goldilocks speed" and nonsense like that...

There is no way in the world that a 45-70 would match a 458 or a 460, again and again, all else being equal.

Yes, flat nose Vs. round nose is different in my book.

 

[Maverick223]

all else being equal (bullet shape, solid, etc..) faster round penetrate better...got that?

Still if it is a expanding bullet (for both high and low velocity rounds) the lower velocity round may very well penetrate more due to excessive expansion, yawing/tumbling and/or fragmentation...but with well constructed solids I cannot fathom how the faster round would not penetrate further in virtually any medium.

 

[Gryffydd]

I saw a test a while back where various rounds were fired into sandbags. The .45ACP penetrated much further than a .30-06, both using FMJ ammunition. There are plenty of times when more speed means less penetration due to fragmentation etc. The situation under discussion isn't one of them...

 

[saturno_v]

Still if it is a expanding bullet (for both high and low velocity rounds) the lower velocity round may very well penetrate more due to excessive expansion, yawing/tumbling and/or fragmentation...but with well constructed solids I cannot fathom how the faster round would not penetrate further in virtually any medium.

Finally...amen to that....it took time though...

With expanding bullet you have to take in consideration the intended velocity to avoid overexpansion...we already did talk about that...

 

[H&Hhunter]

Still if it is a expanding bullet (for both high and low velocity rounds) the lower velocity round may very well penetrate more due to excessive expansion, yawing/tumbling and/or fragmentation...but with well constructed solids I cannot fathom how the faster round would not penetrate further in virtually any medium.

BINGO we have a winner. That's why a 180 Ballistic tip put of a .30-06 is a winner on game the same round out of a .300 WBY can be very finicky the impact velocity is simply above the design capability of the bullet in the Weatherby.

 

[Maverick223]

Finally...amen to that....it took time though..

Hey don't look at me...I said either (.500S&W or .45-70Govt. in any iteration) wasn't good 'nuff (WRT large, dangerous game) for me a few decades ago here...

What? How is 500S&W better for dangerous game? The 500S&W can only be loaded (according to my handbook) to about the same energy as a anemic .45-70Govt. (trapdoor load), and will have a inferior sectional density and ballistic coefficient due to the larger caliber and equivalent (or lesser) mass. That said I don't believe either are good for large dangerous game (on the order of Cape Buff, Rhino, Hippo, Elephant, et al)

BINGO we have a winner.

Ooooh...what do I get...a new, shiny .375H&H bolt gun?

 

[coosbaycreep]

I'm too lazy to read through all 7 pages of this thread, so if I'm saying something that's already been posted, sorry.

I got a marlin 45-70 right about the time I got a handi rifle in .500mag. I sold the 45-70 shortly after.

You can get bullets ranging from 300grains to 700 grains for .500 mag, and it is fairly accurate with all weights of bullets I tried.

500mag in a rifle has more power than any 45-70 load other than 500gr ruger no.1 loads, and for what a ruger no.1 costs, you can buy 3 handi rifles...or a no. 1 in .458 lott.

500mag reaches the same velocities with 350gr bullets as a .458 does, but it doesn't do so hot with 500gr.

My hottest load for 500mag is 350grains at 2,385fps, which equates to 4,422 lbs of knockdown. With 700gr bullets it's 1,373fps. 500gr is 1,486fps.

500mag may not be a .458, but unless you have a ruger no.1 or something similar, the .500mag is capable of more power than .45-70, and is probably cheaper to shoot. I have yet to have to throw out a piece of 500mag brass yet, and some of them are on their sixth or seventh reload with max or near max loads. I don't know how much powder 45-70 uses, but 500mag only uses about 25-50grains, and pistol powder is cheaper than rifle powder last time I checked.

For the money, I'd take a 500mag handi rifle over any .45-70.

 

[hydraulicman]

45-70 is just plain cool

500 mag is the new hotness

I'd go with the 45/70 it will kill anything the 500 will

45/70 is legendary

 

[elmerfudd]

The way I see it, if you've got more energy and more momentum, you've got the potential for greater penetration. That doesn't necessarily mean you will actually get it with any two similar bullets however. A bullet that penetrates great at 1500 fps might fragment or mushroom at 2500. If you find the correct bullet however, then the extra energy and momentum WILL give it an edge every time.

Look at it this way. If the "Goldilocks" velocity is 1700 fps, then a bullet traveling 2500 fps will have already penetrated quite a few inches when it reaches the Goldilocks velocity and at that point it can still match the remaining penetration of the 1700 fps cartridge.

 

[H&Hhunter]

500mag reaches the same velocities with 350gr bullets as a .458 does, but it doesn't do so hot with 500gr.

My hottest load for 500mag is 350grains at 2,385fps, which equates to 4,422 lbs of knockdown. With 700gr bullets it's 1,373fps. 500gr is 1,486fps.

Two questions,

1. What does a .458 WM do with a 350 gr bullet? Answer about 2500 fps. So no the .500 S&W does NOT match the .458 in velocity, ever no way no how. You are using Garret logic here.

2. A 350 gr Load @ 2,385 fps!! Have you ever actually chronoed that load? Man oh man you've got yourself a man portable shoulder held in your face hand grenade there my friend. And all that velocity with a sectional density of less than .200. You are claiming over 500fps gain over the hottest loads listed I realize that these are probably form a pistol but 500FPS is a whole heck of a lot of gain. Are you sure about those numbers?



http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...m&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source

 

[Wanta B]

Sorry,I have to make this quick...

I think that we all could very well be talking about nearly the same things hear...Please refere to my posts #s 68,76,92,119 and 137. Hopefully they can speak for the lack of time in this reply.

For me,respectfully,I must still voice some disagreement however...

Several of us had heard of this penetration deal,so we gave it some field trials on our owne.Results were as I staited.Now,with first hand accounts that contradict everything we had held true some of us are trying to find out how this can be.That is why,instead of saying my piece and going on down the road,so to speak,I keep chiming in here.I am looking for answers not arguements.

As to the .45-70...I have not said it is more powerful,does more damage nor the ideal cartridge for DG. I look at it as what the .308Win. is to Elk,Moose and Bear.It has and will work and with regularity.Modern loads are still more powerful than the original .375HH. I do not know about penetration,yet.I will give it a go as time allows.

A PH has an aspect to their job that I do not nor does a recreational hunter looking for a thrill. The PH must,repeat,MUST be able to stop dead a charging animal to protect the client.No doubt the other cartridges are better suited for that task.

Talk to you all later,gota' go.

Regards
Want B

 

[H&Hhunter]

A PH has an aspect to their job that I do not nor does a recreational hunter looking for a thrill. The PH must,repeat,MUST be able to stop dead a charging animal to protect the client.No doubt the other cartridges are better suited for that task.

Yep pretty much what I have to say about it too. You and I are in agreement. However from personal experience I can promise you that you should never trust a PH to solve your problems for you. I've had to dig myself out before. Therefore my take on what makes a suitable DG rifle.

 

[Maverick223]

A 350 gr Load @ 2,385 fps!! Have you ever actually chronoed that load? Man oh man you've got yourself a man portable shoulder held in your face hand grenade there my friend.

Just checked Lyman's 49th Ed. and it lists the maximum load of a .500S&W (out of a 15" break action rifle barrel) using a 350gr. JHP projectile as 1869fps...that is 500fps over max, so something is very wrong...or if attempted is about to be.

FWIW the sectional density of the aforementioned bullet is .200, and the maximum SD is .280 (in a 500gr. JFP), which is still mediocre, and translates to mediocre penetration. By comparison the 500gr. RN .458cal bullet has a respectable SD of .341 (and the lowly 450gr. is even .306). Poor penetration, due to a poor SD, is why the US military abandoned the .50caliber rifle (.50-70Govt.) after only 7yrs of service (by comparison the .45-70 soldiered on for nearly 20 yrs., and was not fully replaced for an additional 20yrs, when the .30-03 was introduced). I am inclined to believe the .500S&W may suffer the same fate as the .50-70, but the additional velocity (the .50-70 was never modernized to shoot nitrocellulose) may help somewhat.

 

[H&Hhunter]

If a guy really wants a .50 cal lever gun that is short and handy go get a .50 Alaskan. That round is actually pretty darn impressive.

 

[coosbaycreep]

I've chronographed almost all of my loads, and a decent variety of factory 500mag ammo too.

The 350gr load at 2,385fps was a speer UCSP with 48.5gr of lil gun. The max charge listed in the speer manual is 49.0gr. There was no sign of overpressure. The handi rifle has a 22" barrel IIRC. The speer manual lists 1739fps with 49.0gr using a 8.875" barrel. The also list 1667fps with the starting charge for this bullet with lil gun at 45.0gr. I got 2302fps with 45.0gr. I individually weigh every charge too, mainly because my powder measure won't throw a consistent charge.

A lot of the rounds I've chronied, especially the factory ammo, doesn't gain as much velocity as it should. (If the theory of 50fps gain for every extra 1" of barrel length is suppose to be true). Some of them impress me, but some are pretty disappointing. Either way, 500mag is a whole lot of gun that doesn't seem to be getting the respect it deserves.

As for the 500 not reaching 458win velocities with a 350gr bullet; the speer manual lists
max. charge velocities ranging from 2,314-2,593fps, so 2,385fps from the 500mag isn't that far off, especially since it uses about a third less powder, is bigger in diameter, and isn't a rifle caliber to begin with.

I know nothing about sectional density, penetration, or how much of an effect any of this has on hunting, but I do know that 500mag has more power than any load a .45-70 handi rifle can handle, and only a ruger no.1/siamese mauser/etc is capable of higher velocities with heavier bullets. I also doubt there's enough of a difference in the price to shoot it if you reload too, and if I'm gonna bruise my shoulder and wallet shooting at something, I'd just assume make the biggest hole possible, and only a shotgun will make bigger holes for the money.

And another thing, my handi rifle shoots 1/2" one shot groups all day long. Try that with your little .45 caliber squirrel rifle.

 

[Wanta B]

coosbaycreep---

When I get back state side I would like to extend an invitation/challenge(freindly that is) to put our favorite pet loads against one another.I can provide all sorts of test media...soon to include Iron Buffalos.

In this way we not only get to have some fun but also get more eyes on the results.

I'll make a gentlemen's bet with ya' that my .45-70 will out penetrate your .500.

 

[Maverick223]

I'll make a gentlemen's bet with ya' that my .45-70 will out penetrate your .500.

I too would take that bet (for the .45-70Govt. that is), and be more than willing to put up a load of my own.

 

[ms6852]

I would go for 45-70 for versatility, but for deer and as a brush gun marlin 336 35 remington. More loving for your shoulder, cheap ammo at walmart and can bring down black bear.

 

[Maverick223]

More loving for your shoulder.

The .45-70 loves your shoulder...that is why it likes to get real close when you pull the trigger.

 

[coosbaycreep]

Wanta b, I accept your challenge. The only thing I think your 45-70 will out penetrate my 500 against is steel, and that's only because it's a smaller diameter bullet.

I remember seeing test results (can't remember the website) online somewhere that showed the penetration of most of the big bore pistol and rifle calibers against wet newspaper, and while the 45-70 had ungodly penetration, 500mag still went further.

We'll see though.