Mr_Pale_Horse
Member
Kentucky allows ANY centerfire.
25 ACP in a pocket pistol is legal
25 ACP in a pocket pistol is legal
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45-70 govt vs 500 smith and wesson
- Thread starter Mr Bernoulli
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Wanta B
Member
No .45-70 or 30-30 thats just weird/crazy.I'm quite the USA mutt...1/4 being Native
...I'm not pissed.
.I'm quite the USA mutt...1/4 being Native...I'm not pissed.
Maverick223
Member
Thanks...just jokin' around, I am part indjun as well (but only about 1/8 IIRC, so it doesn't really count).
Wanta B
Member
No worries Maverick223,ifn' we can't take a bit of ribn' its time to go home.
Wanta B
Member
WOW!!! Ok,.25ACP...just as weird in the other direction!
Wanta B
Member
Just noticed there are 458 folks veiwing in rifle county!! Ha!Ha!
Maverick223
Member
I have already made a joke about American Indians in Indiana...there is probably another one in there about Hillbillies in Kentucky...but I leave that one alone.
Where is the link to the Garrett article??
However a US Forest Service study about effectiveness of rifle rounds against big bears placed the 458 WM and the 460 Wby at the top and the 45-70 at position #17
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf
There is no way in the world that if you take two identical undeformable bullets .45 cal of the same weight, the faster one will penetrate less...never ever.
The Garrett 45-70 +P Exiter can launch a 500 gr. slug at ~1600 fps where a 460 Wby can launch the same pill at 2600 fps....1000 fps more!!!
Garrett can play around with bullet styles to make impressive claims (like when they say that their 44 Magnum hardcast Hammerhead load can outpenetrate a 375 H&H...but if you read carefully, they mean a 270 gr. soft point .375 cal bullet)
Don't ever tell to an experienced African hunter that a 45-70 will outpenetrate a 460 Weatherby Magnum (all else being equal) if you do not want to be laughed at.....seriously....
However a US Forest Service study about effectiveness of rifle rounds against big bears placed the 458 WM and the 460 Wby at the top and the 45-70 at position #17
http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152.pdf
There is no way in the world that if you take two identical undeformable bullets .45 cal of the same weight, the faster one will penetrate less...never ever.
The Garrett 45-70 +P Exiter can launch a 500 gr. slug at ~1600 fps where a 460 Wby can launch the same pill at 2600 fps....1000 fps more!!!
Garrett can play around with bullet styles to make impressive claims (like when they say that their 44 Magnum hardcast Hammerhead load can outpenetrate a 375 H&H...but if you read carefully, they mean a 270 gr. soft point .375 cal bullet)
Don't ever tell to an experienced African hunter that a 45-70 will outpenetrate a 460 Weatherby Magnum (all else being equal) if you do not want to be laughed at.....seriously....
Maverick223
Member
I won't claim that it will outclass the big .458s (and I like 'em all), but the modern hot .45-70Govt. does much better than the Forest Service indicates, they only used the weaker loads that were and still are more common. For a .45-70 to perform as it should you need to select your loads carefully or ideally handload for it.
Wanta B
Member
:banghead:
Wanta B
Member
A link to one of Garrett's articles is in a post above. #77.
Wanta B
Member
1983 the year of that USFS study.
Fired at a swimming pool of water the 5.56Nato thru' the .50BMG brake up within 6-8" or less....12ga slug and black powder muzzle loader 6-12' penitration.
Fired at a swimming pool of water the 5.56Nato thru' the .50BMG brake up within 6-8" or less....12ga slug and black powder muzzle loader 6-12' penitration.
Wanta
That Garret page is not a test page but just a discussion page with no hard data...just conversation.
The US Forest Service study instead include all the info you need and the rankings (page #7 in the pdf link I enclosed)
#1 - 458 WM 510 gr. Type bullet RSP (Round Nose Soft Point), Velocity at 15 yards: 2074 fps, Expansion Ratio: 4.6, Penetration: 19 inches
#27 - 45-70 405 gr., Bullet Type RSP, Velocity at 15 yards: 1322 fps, Expansion Ratio: 2.1, Penetration: 15.8 inches
End of the story....really....
That Garret page is not a test page but just a discussion page with no hard data...just conversation.
The US Forest Service study instead include all the info you need and the rankings (page #7 in the pdf link I enclosed)
#1 - 458 WM 510 gr. Type bullet RSP (Round Nose Soft Point), Velocity at 15 yards: 2074 fps, Expansion Ratio: 4.6, Penetration: 19 inches
#27 - 45-70 405 gr., Bullet Type RSP, Velocity at 15 yards: 1322 fps, Expansion Ratio: 2.1, Penetration: 15.8 inches
End of the story....really....
Maverick223
Member
Now there's your problem!
Don't believe that either...this was from a Mythbusters (who oft get firearms related "myths" wrong, or manage to simply conduct the test wrong from what I have seen) episode and they fired it at an angle, high velocity spitzer rounds tend to fragment or deflect when fired at a smooth surface at an angle. If fired straight down (like the shotgun was), there would have been much more penetration. I won't comment on whether it would have been more or less than the 12Ga./Muzzleloader, but it would certainly have been more that the result they arrived at. Simply not and apples to apples comparison of penetration. I can guarantee that the .50BMG will do a whole lot better than 6-8" of penetration with the proper projectiles.
Maverick223
Member
Not really...if you notice the faster .460Wby doesn't perform as well as the .458WM, this is because there is a Goldilocks velocity (I am not sure whether or not it remains the same with respect to caliber size, but it exists), that lies somewhere between a weak Trapdoor .45-70Govt. and the powerful .460Wby Magnum. There is evidence that the maximum penetration of a .458 caliber projectile is somewhere in the 1500-1800fps range, however this obviously does not provide as much energy transfer (assuming that the slug stops within the animal on the more powerful round, and is not wasted externally), and therefore a much larger temporary cavity (a result of hydrostatic shock) and perhaps permanent one (due to tumbling, expansion, and or fragmentation). Obviously the mass, shape, construction, and the diameter of the projectile also has a great deal to do with the terminal effect of the round, including but not limited to the amount of penetration.
One thing that is FACT, is that you can always load the .460Wby (and the .458WM/Lott, .450NE/NE #2, et al) to the velocity of the .45-70Govt. (with the same projectiles) to mimic its performance, but you cannot load the .45-70Govt. to mimic any of the aforementioned cartridges.
Wanta B
Member
More than likely true enough as our .50s will go thru' 55gal.drums of water 6barrels deep that I have seen.I'll have to check that out some how.Ideas?
However,I can also say that the high velocity rounds,allbeit at an angle,have messured up as I staited against the .12ga.s and the .60 muzzle loader floating around here.Tho' not always...sometimes the slow movers deflect too BUT they do not break up.
However,I can also say that the high velocity rounds,allbeit at an angle,have messured up as I staited against the .12ga.s and the .60 muzzle loader floating around here.Tho' not always...sometimes the slow movers deflect too BUT they do not break up.
Maverick223
Member
More barrels? I have thought of using a old oil tank (used for heating homes), cut open to form a trough, shot from end to end, however if 6 bbls won't stop it that probably won't either. How did you shoot them? Long ways...or standing up side by side?
Ridgerunner665
Member
saturn...
Its hard to explain...When hit with a faster bullet, the tissue has to move out of the way faster. This creates MUCH greater resistance on the bullet, thereby slowing it down at a faster rate.
The 45-70, purely by chance, strikes a near perfect balance in this...enough speed, enough weight.
I'm tired of trying to tell you, and regardless of what ANYBODY says...I have tested these bullets in 45-70 and 458 Win. Mag myself...the 45-70 penetrates more. Not a great deal more than the 458, but more. (Just like Garrett said they did...that article inspired my tests, which confirmed his results)
My tests were done using wet newspaper and phone books...not on live animals, but the results wouldn't be any different.
EDIT: And that #27 ranked load you speak of...was a 405 grain bullet. A 525 grain Piledriver at 1500 fps would be a whole other monster entirely... see the video in post #79.
Its hard to explain...When hit with a faster bullet, the tissue has to move out of the way faster. This creates MUCH greater resistance on the bullet, thereby slowing it down at a faster rate.
The 45-70, purely by chance, strikes a near perfect balance in this...enough speed, enough weight.
I'm tired of trying to tell you, and regardless of what ANYBODY says...I have tested these bullets in 45-70 and 458 Win. Mag myself...the 45-70 penetrates more. Not a great deal more than the 458, but more. (Just like Garrett said they did...that article inspired my tests, which confirmed his results)
My tests were done using wet newspaper and phone books...not on live animals, but the results wouldn't be any different.
EDIT: And that #27 ranked load you speak of...was a 405 grain bullet. A 525 grain Piledriver at 1500 fps would be a whole other monster entirely... see the video in post #79.
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Wanta B
Member
I,ve used my .45-70s,.458x2 1/6",.458WinMag and .460Wby....45-70 and .458x2 1/6" have the best penetration. Test media has been wet phone books,wet news paper,dead animals,live animals,wet plywood(.460 broke even on that one.)
Barrels were standing upright...My thoughts are that there may be some relationship with the water being in barrels rather than one large body?Perhaps the results would be different if say the side of a swimming pool were fired on?
This need not be an expensive pool,possibly even a "blow-up" pool?8-10' diameter.
Barrels were standing upright...My thoughts are that there may be some relationship with the water being in barrels rather than one large body?Perhaps the results would be different if say the side of a swimming pool were fired on?
This need not be an expensive pool,possibly even a "blow-up"
pool?8-10' diameter.Wanta B
Member
A bit OT but I want to try a .416x2 1/16" Ruger.
Ridgerunner665
Member
"Hard barrier"....sorta.
When you have to penetrate hard barriers more speed does help, hence the 460 "caught up" a little.
Bones are not hard barriers...solid wood, metal, glass and such are hard barriers.
Maverick223
Member
Sometime in the near future (when the gunsmith can squeeze me in), I will be rechambering my Browning 1885 High Wall to .45-120NE and begin loading at roughly .450NE specifications (should push a 450gr. solid to about 2400fps)...then I will be able to do a bit of experimenting of my own.
Absodagumlutely!...example .223Rem. penetrating steel (well) vs. tissue (not so good).
Ridgerunner
If you read that study, the 460 Wby performed worse than the 458 WM because the bullet fragmented.
Wanta
I agree with you that the bullet will encounter much more resistance at faster velocity and the gain in penetration would be way less than the velocity difference with a slower bullet may imply....however I find hard to believe that, assuming undeformable bullets (solids ARE NOT all the same...some bullets may behave as solid at 45-70 velocities but would deform at 460 Wby pace), the 45-70 would outpenetrate a 460 Wby.
A similar parallel can be done with simple air resistance...as you know the aerodynamic drag increase exponentially with velocity (the air getting out of the way)....a bullet flying at 3000 fps will not go 50% farther than the same bullet flying at 2000 fps......still it will go a bit farther.
If that is true, African hunters can save a lot of money in rifles and ammo and carry a fast repeating Marlin 1895 in 45-70 against Dumbo, Rhino and Cape Buffaloes.....why buying a slow bolt action rifle for $5000 and up with $10 a pop ammo when you can do a better job at 1/10 of the cost??
I wish H&H could pitch in with his considerable African experience.
If you read that study, the 460 Wby performed worse than the 458 WM because the bullet fragmented.
Wanta
I agree with you that the bullet will encounter much more resistance at faster velocity and the gain in penetration would be way less than the velocity difference with a slower bullet may imply....however I find hard to believe that, assuming undeformable bullets (solids ARE NOT all the same...some bullets may behave as solid at 45-70 velocities but would deform at 460 Wby pace), the 45-70 would outpenetrate a 460 Wby.
A similar parallel can be done with simple air resistance...as you know the aerodynamic drag increase exponentially with velocity (the air getting out of the way)....a bullet flying at 3000 fps will not go 50% farther than the same bullet flying at 2000 fps......still it will go a bit farther.
If that is true, African hunters can save a lot of money in rifles and ammo and carry a fast repeating Marlin 1895 in 45-70 against Dumbo, Rhino and Cape Buffaloes.....why buying a slow bolt action rifle for $5000 and up with $10 a pop ammo when you can do a better job at 1/10 of the cost??
I wish H&H could pitch in with his considerable African experience.
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Wanta B
Member
The leverguns are gaining in popularity here quite a bit with the curve rising quickly. Traditions as such change slowly...also as I staited in an earlier post I have a restomod '74 DodgeCharger (850hp,20mpg fwy)that was built for far less than the Euro Super cars it beats regularly but the folks that buy them like a certain "look".
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Maverick223
Member
They would probably be just fine with a modern .45-70...however it doesn't impart nearly as much energy (especially if the faster one doesn't exit, but penetrates far enough to hit vitals), hydrostatic shock can be very important with some game (particularly cats from what I hear). I maintain that if I am afforded a hunt in Africa I will choose a large bore traditional African rifle (preferably an old cartridge such as the .470NE, but more likely a .416Rigby/.458Lott). My [future] .45-120NE should be more than adequate, however I wouldn't trust a single shot falling block against large, dangerous game.
Also FWIW you can get a perfectly acceptable "slow bolt action" in a traditional African chambering for much less than $5k (CZ has a good rifle for about $1k in all of the popular chamberings), also most hunters that are serious enough to go to Africa are reloaders and choose their load carefully to ensure proper performance. All of this is a moot point because the cost of the trip and hunt will far surpass the equipment necessary...and thus typically caters to "if you have to ask you can't afford it" crowd (not always, but often the case).
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