.45-70 v. 12 ga slug

[AStone]

I've been reading the archives for days looking for an answer to this question.

Haven't found it yet, so I'll just ask.

Let's say that you are considering moving to Alaska.

You already own a 12 ga shotgun.

You have an option of buying a Marlin Guide Gun (1895G) in .45-70.

How do the two - .45-70 & 12 ga slug - compare in terms of energy,
felt recoil & stoppage of large animals with large teeth & claws?

That is, if one were moving to AK, would you feel good with a 12 ga with slugs,
or would you prefer to have a .45-70?

Thanks in advance for your opinion.

Nem

 

[Eightball]

I'd prefer the .45-70. More reach-out-and-touch power, you can load HP rounds, etc etc.

Slugs are just painful, and no slug gun that I know of can shoot to 300 yards. If need be, that is possible with .45-70. And it would seem to have better penetration--a must for those large, hulking animals.

Besides, you have a good excuse for another gun.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

.45-70. No question.

The best real-world rifled slug guns are reliably accurate to about 150 yards. That excludes custom, purpose built target bench models. The IDF uses the Mossberg 695 with a 3x9 scope for counter-sniping in urban situations.

Compare that with the single-shot crowd that pops bullseyes at 500 plus yards.

Granted, a .72 caliber Forster and a .500 Brenneke make big holes, but that .45 doesn't shrink and you have a much better bullet selection. I'd trust a Guide Gun.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[AStone]

8-ball & Rabbit,

You make good points. Thanks.

Seems like good reasons to keep
the 12 ga loaded with 00
for human "home" invaders,
(or # 7 shot for birds),
& get a .45-70 for animals
with larger teeth & claws.

Keep those cards & letters coming in...

Nem

 

[USSR]

How do the two - .45-70 & 12 ga slug - compare in terms of energy,
felt recoil & stoppage of large animals with large teeth & claws?

Without a doubt, the 12 gauge slug. In Alaska, bear distances in which your life is in peril is measured in feet. Use what the guides up there use for backup (unless it's a .375 H&H), and it ain't no stinkin' .45-70. A .70 caliber, 437gr projectile will put a world of hurt on 'ol griz.

Don

 

[Deer Hunter]

Keep the shotgun. At any real distance where the bear is threatening your life, it will serve you well. You would be a fool popping shots at a grizzly at a long distance with a 45-70. You would only get his attention, and that's something you don't want. Stick with the shotgun loaded with slugs. A 3" slug at reasonable "oh S**T" distances will do just fine.

 

[Frog48]

Both.

 

[Lambo119]

12 ga.

I have to agree with the last three members. 12ga for defense is the way to go. Actually the 45-70 would be considered too light for hunting brown bear. My black bear guide in alaska carried a 12ga with collapsable stock for defensive purposes only along with a .458 wm. He also required his hunter carry a rifle .300 wm or bigger (I used a .338 wm) for black bear. I was told that my .338 would be a good "low end" cal for brown bear if I wanted to come back.

But get the 45-70 anyway for fun...

 

[CSA 357]

a 1 oz slug out of a 12 ga is awsome, i dont think you can claim self defense at 200 yards,i have a b 78 in 45-70 but for big bears up close 12 slug please

 

[Hoppy590]

The best real-world rifled slug guns are reliably accurate to about 150 yards. That excludes custom, purpose built target bench models. The IDF uses the Mossberg 695 with a 3x9 scope for counter-sniping in urban situations.

anyone got any pics of this beast?!

 

[GunNut]

I would feel safe with either of them.

My 11-87P semi-auto 12ga is quick for follow up shots, and throws a big slug at moderate velocities.

A 1895GS guide gun would be smaller, and still throws a 400gr+ round at 1600-2000FPS. Recoil is brutal and follow up shots may be slower on target than the 12ga.


Pick whichever platform you prefer and practice, practice, practice so that everything will be natural when you are under stress.

Steve

 

[kieran]

why not get a ..

450 Marlin.

 

[Car Knocker]

The .450 Marlin is just the equivalant of the hot-loaded .45-70s available without the flexibility.

 

[Sylvilagus Aquaticus]

"anyone got any pics of this beast?!"

Hoppy590, isaryeret used to have a photo of it in action on their website. Let me see what I can dig up. It's gone paysite/registration only, probably due to the SF nature of things there.

http://www.isayeret.com/main/guide.htm is the previous link redirect. The original link is:

http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/mossberg/mossberg.htm

Here's a photo for reference of what an unmodified 695 looks like:
http://www.lowescertifiedguns.com/browseproducts/Mossburg-12-Gauge-Model-695.HTML

Found some on Gunbroker:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=58624249

and here:
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=58670590
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=58909094


I ran across one on consignment about a year ago; they were asking $275 for it, which was more than the $225 I was prepared to pay for it. It was one of those that had forend problems but otherwise ok. I had the scheme to stick a nice variable on top with a bipod and punch Chryslers and paper with it, but I'm a cheap bastage and let it go to someone else.

After Googling 'Mossberg 695 sniper' I've come up snake eyes.

Regards,
Rabbit.

 

[Gordon]

Defensive: 12 ga. slug (Brenneke magnum)-it's running up the muzzle!

Offensive: 45-70 with 350 or heavier premium game loads.(if a .375H&H or bigger not available!)

 

[SoCalShooter]

Personally having fired both types of rounds from a multitude of weapons. I would go with the 45-70 you may need that extra range the 45-70 can give you over the 12gauge.

 

[Cosmoline]

Both are good choices, IF loaded properly. The .45-70 offers more sectional density and better accuracy. The slug gun, IF loaded with Brenneke magnum slugs, offers comparable ft. lbs. and penetration at short range. For hunting bear, the .45-70's range and better bullet selection make it the clear winner, but inside of 25 yards both are good, again IF loaded properly. A 12 ga with buckshot or .45-70 with cowboy loads ain't gonna cut the mustard. You need heavy hardcast lead. I'd even shy away from HP .45-70's, as they won't penetrate nearly as far as the solids. If you choose the shotgun, fix it with a SLUG BARREL with rifle sights and leave the buckshot at home.

The biggest real world advantage of the slug gun over the .45-70 is the expense. They can be had for under three bills and you don't have to worry if you drop them in the Susitna. These guys who spend a grand on custom Wild West Marlins tend to be from outside, as we say.

 

[ETXhiker]

If I was moving to Alaska, I would go ahead and get the .375 H&H. Not too long ago, I was in Cabela's and stood in front of an upright mount of a brown bear around 8 feet tall. A sobering sight, for sure. It made me think there's no such thing as too much gun for one of these guys when it's up close and personal.

 

[Cosmoline]

Well, if you can't bring the firearm into action in a second or two, then it *IS* too much gun. For DLP shooting speed of presentation and ease of close range aming are the most important elements.

 

[AStone]

This discussion is really helpful, folks. Thanks a bunch. I'm reading with interest and learning much.

I'm listening extra carefully to Mr. Cosmoline, 'cause he's from "the inside" as they say.

Please keep those opinions coming in ...

 

[44AMP]

Either

Will do the job, I am a big fan of the .45-70, and a long time respecter of the 12 ga. If you are concerned with defense only, you already have the shotgun. Good slug loads, and you are covered.

If you are talking about hunting bear (or being attacked by bear while out hunting something else), the .45-70 would be a sensible choice over the shotgun. And I concur with the advice against JHP in the .45-70. Hardcast will penetrate better, and penetration is what does the job in a rifle like that.

 

[db_tanker]

Someone beat me to it...

BOTH





As you have already stated, you presently own a 12 gauge...add to it with that Marlin and you will have home defense sewed up and bear medicine as well. PLUS, with modern 300 gr loads you have a perfectly viable deer rifle for 150 yard shots...mebbe put a 1-4x scope on the Marlin and call it good.

MTCW
D

 

[rockstar.esq]

The 12GA shotgun remains the single most diverse longarm I've ever encountered. It can reasonably serve all roles from the .22LR to the 45-70 plus all the 870s I've ever met would get into action faster than levers or bolts. Truth of the matter is that I can cycle my 870 faster than any of my other firearms (I don't have a semiauto rifle). I don't know squat about bears however I've come to consider them as about the most dangerous thing I'll ever come across (aside from people). The best reference will be to examine what bear hunters acually use. My guess is that most Alaskan residents fire more shots to deter than to kill. My second guess is that bear hunters shoot whatever kills with one shot. I'd keep the shotgun provided it's a pump or reliable semiauto and buy whatever the hunters there use for the bear medicine.

 

[AStone]

The 12GA shotgun remains the single most diverse longarm I've ever encountered....plus all the 870s I've ever met would get into action faster than levers or bolts. Truth of the matter is that I can cycle my 870 faster than any of my other firearms (I don't have a semiauto rifle).

I agree with all of those statements.

I don't know squat about bears...

If you should move to AK, or anywhere else near the Arctic circle,
your knowledge of bears will increase exponentially or else natural selection will ensue.

... however I've come to consider them as about the most dangerous thing I'll ever come across (aside from people).

Umm hmm.

Still, I'd rather face bears than people.

My guess is that most Alaskan residents fire more shots to deter than to kill.

Hmm. Interesting hypothesis.

I'd keep the shotgun provided it's a pump...

Trust me on this one:
I'll keep the shotgun.
{See user name.}

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Actually, I think you'd be surprised how far a 12ga shotgun can reach out with modern ammo.

One of the things they do at the Tac Pro Shooting Center Primary Shotgun class is shoot open-choked 12ga shotguns at 100, 200, and 300yds with slugs. In the last class, every student got hits on 20" steel at 300yds and none of these guns were particularly special. They were all stock Remington 870 barrels.

Having said that, I still think the .45-70 would be better for your purposes.