.45-70 v. 12 ga slug

[Gewehr98]

Not entirely exclusive.

In Alaska, bear distances in which your life is in peril is measured in feet. Use what the guides up there use for backup (unless it's a .375 H&H), and it ain't no stinkin' .45-70.

I've spent many of the last 20 years on assignment in Alaska, specifically the Fairbanks and Anchorage locations. While the 12 gauge slug gun may indeed be a favorite of guides there, more than a few guides and bush pilots I met packed the Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in .45-70. I would wager that Ken at WildWestGuns does an alright local business in leverguns chambered for .45-70 and better, also.

If a .45-70throws a 405 slug @ 1,300 and a 12 gauge throws a 437 @ 1,900, guess which one wins.

Only if you're loading BP or commercial powderpuff loads for a Trapdoor Springfield. I run 405gr Beartooth hardcast rounds at 2,100fps through my Ruger #1, and some of the commercially-available Level II Marlin/Winchester/Sharps loads like Buffalo Bore and Garrett are closer to the latter than the former.

Don't get me wrong, 12 gauge and 10 gauge slugs are great for big bears. 30mm GAU-8 rounds are even better, and nobody's gonna argue that the 120mm M1A2 smoothbore would make short work of a pissed-off grizzly bear. Give me a Marlin Guide Gun, and either Level II handloads, Buffalo Bore or Garrett Hammerhead commercial loads, and I'll be just fine.

 

[AStone]

OK, another question about recoil

So, OK, I'm not keeping very good stats, but my sense is 12 ga v. .45/70 seems to be running fairly close, with a bunch of folks indicating that lives won't be lost with either (assuming reasonable skill with either gun and other disclaimers, yada yada).

So, I'm feeling comfortable with my 12 ga. It's a keeper anyway, so I can't go wrong. Check.

But just for kicks, I have a question about .45/70 recoil with the lightest rounds available (preferably factory, but if not, please specify "reload only").

(I'm asking this because I'm getting very close to buying a Marlin .30/30 which I am familiar with and like a lot, but have an option to get a .45/70 instead, but I've never shot one, only read stories . I think I know what I'm going to do, but always like to cover all options...)

Here's the question: imagine that you were going to hunt deer (etc.) with a .45/70, and prefer to use a round comparable to something in .30/30 (e.g., 170).

How would the recoil of the lightest available .45/70 rnd compare with a 170 gr .30/30?

A) about the same
B) somewhat more substantial
C) far more substantial (flinch worthy)

 

[Loanshark]

There are factory loads that'll feel similar to the 30/30 that would be perfectly acceptable for deer. Well it's been a while since I shot a 30/30 but I've shot some factory 45-70 cartridges recently that I could shoot all day. They were remington rounds 405GR. IIRC, I know they aren't the lightest ones they have, so I'm sure you could find some that are comfortable to shoot. If you use the new hornaday lever revolution rounds you even get a point on the tip.

I shot some winchester rounds last time at the range and they kicked like a mule... much harder than the remington rounds. The funny thing was they were actually lighter, 300grains.

Anyone try the new hornadays in their marlin? How'd the recoil compare to others you've used?

 

[Skofnung]

On recoil, most factory loads are loaded to "trapdoor" spec, and don't kick too bad at all. They kick more than a .30-30, but it is not that bad. It is more of a push than a kick.

One thing I didn't see mentioned is the question of penetration. At equal speeds, the .45-70 would penetrate deeper than a slug would it not? Or would the heavier projectile weight of the slug make up for the lack of sectional density?
Is this important when it comes to big bruins?

 

[Dr.Rob]

I have an issue with the Marlin Guide Gun.

That craptastic safety will let you drop the hammer and NOTHING happens.



There is no good reason why a hammer block safety doesn't block the hammer from moving. Unless you want to 'risk' leaving your rifle on half cock... (as many did for a zillion years) or on an empty chamber (as some suggest) you have twice as many operations to perform under stress with a Marlin.

The push button by the trigger of the 870, plus it's lighter weight would steer me towards the shotgun. I'm pretty good with slugs out to 100 yards and I've shot good number of 45/70 loads.

I prefer the 405's to the 300's.

When it comes to slugs I prefer a 2 & 3/4inch 1oz at max dram.

 

[Skywarp]

Shotgun + extension.

8 slugs is some bitter medicine that no animal would stick around for.


Ive blasted some heavy 3" mag slugs out of my M2. Recoil wasnt bad at all and the refrigerator and car parts involved didnt fare to well. Even with my smooth bore shotgun and federals new truball slugs i can keep within a two inch group at 85 yrds (estimated distance)

 

[AStone]

So, right now, I'm feeling that a Marlin .30/30 for a utility rifle will do nicely
& 12 ga slugs for larger nightmare monsters with claws & teeth.

Maybe add a .45/70 later...

 

[nanuq]

I used to carry a Marlin 20 gauge pump loaded with alternating 3/4 ounce slugs and buckshot as a camp gun; try to break them down with the slug, blast the face with buckshot if that doesn't work. Repeat as necessary. I never tried it, but I liked the theory. It was a nice, light gun I was comfortable with.

 

[AStone]

Couldn't help but notice that
this thread, now on the first page of rifle country,
has 1,368 views.

That's more views than
any other thread on the first page of rifle country
outside of stickies.

Just wondering: why are so many looking here?

Rifle v. shotgun?
Interest in .45-70?
Interest in 12 ga?
Other?

 

[ctdonath]

Why?

One of my dream guns is a WWG Alaskan Co-Pilot takedown in .45/70 - at a few thousand bucks, I want to know how it compares to shotguns I already own at 1/10th the price.

 

[db_tanker]

Heh...if your going to talk about wishful thinking....


Perhaps a 450 Alaskan or a 500 Alaskan under the old Christmas tree would be a mighty fine present.


Hell, I would be happy with the old lever and stock chambered 348 Winchester!


D

 

[dispatch55126]

For defensive purposes, caliber is important but being comfortable and confident is even more important. Be it a 12 Ga., 45-70, or 7.62x39, if it is more than a single shot and you are comfortable with its operation and confident it will do the job, any will do. You could have the biggest caliber available, but if you are not comfortable with it, it will feel awkward and slow you down. If you're not confident in the weapon, you will hesitate and Mr. Fuzzy Wuzzy will have a chloresterol raising meal.

 

[Gewehr98]

Man Law?

Don't fruit the beer.

A .45-70 vs. 12 gauge slug for bear thread is indeed interesting.

Was that Haiku from Nem-870?

Jury's still out on that one...

Couldn't help but notice that
this thread, now on the first page of rifle country,
has 1,368 views.

That's more views than
any other thread on the first page of rifle country
outside of stickies.

Just wondering: why are so many looking here?

Rifle v. shotgun?
Interest in .45-70?
Interest in 12 ga?
Other?

 

[Skywarp]

its easy


All the pistol guys go all nuts about the 45ACP because there is no 46ACP.


This is .74 caliber....how could you go wrong?!

 

[de]

I have a 4570 and a 12 guage. At real close quarters. The slug.

 

[Outlaws]

I'd prefer the .45-70. More reach-out-and-touch power, you can load HP rounds, etc etc.

HP? Why on earth would you want to shoot at a Kodiak with a hollow point?


EDIT: Didn't realize there was 3 pages already lol....

 

[AStone]

Was that Haiku from Nem-870?

<grins>

Not unless we want to redefine Haiku. Way too many lines, way too many syllables.

Haiku: Seventeen-syllable verse form, arranged in three lines of five, seven and five syllables.

Just curiousity about why folks are interested in this topic (which has been interesting reading...thanks...)

 

[Dr.Rob]

The softest shooting 45/70 load would be a cast 'cowboy' load from Ultramax but you'd want ballard type rifling to stabilize it. It's a 405 @ 1100 fps.

I think the popularity in the thread reflects the general 'new found interest' in the old cartridge, particularly among hunters who have hunted with a shotgun or lavergun in the past.

 

[AStone]

I shouldered a .45/70 Marlin (1895C) today for the first time.

Just after looking at the bore on the muzzle end.

Yeah, big.

Not as big as my 870, but big nonetheless.

Shouldered well. Felt good. (It WAS a Marlin lever gun, after all.)

Price tag: near $500. I put it down. (I'm looking for a used 336 in .30-30.)

Still, nice gun. I can understand the allure.

Someday, maybe...

 

[Gifted]

you can load 45-70 ammo into a 450 marlin chambered-rifle and shoot it just fine.

How does that work? I looked this up from another thread, and having my reloading book(lyman's 48th) out and such-can you make a gun that will take a rimless cartridge, and a rimmed one .076 larger? Doesn't quite make sense to me.

 

[sacp81170a]

Then again, there's always the .458 Socom which throws a 300 grainer at 1900 fps, almost duplicating the ballistics of a .45-70. Best of all, it gives you an excuse to buy an AR and get the .458 upper. A standard AR mag holds 10 rounds of .458 with no modification. Fast follow-up, ten rounds, AND an excuse to buy another gun!

(HAD to throw that one in, just to add to the variety.)

 

[Orr89rocz]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but Buffalo Bore has a 430 grain load at 1925 fps and a 500 grain load at 1625. I imagine that 500 grain load penetrates some.

Time to call Box O'Truth!

those loads have been used successfully on all species of DANGEROUS AFRICAN game.... hippos, rhino, cape buff's and i think elephant if i recall right.

those loads are HOT and will fully penetrate cape buffalo and hippo, so i think they will be ample for grizz.

guide guns arent the heaviest thing tho...and recoil with those loads will be substantial.



my 870 12 gauge uses winchester platinum tip 400 grain sabots at 1700 feet per second. very accurate at 100yards and provides a decent amount of energy. recoil is stout but not bad.
there is also 385 grain partition golds that go at 1900ft/s. they are designed to expand tho so for penetration purposes on a grizz at close range, i'm not so sure about.

but bigger objects hit harder...more energy transfer due to more surface area to apply the force to. 70+ caliber slugs seem beneficial.

i'd look into Federal rifle slugs and some of the other big top end rifle slugs. my 2 3/4" federals pushed a 547 grain slug at 1520ft/s. the 3incher is over 1600 i believe. thats ALOT of energy at close ranges...but recoil in my light winchester 1300 pump was SUBSTANTIAL even with ported choke tube lol. follow up shots are hard to get off which makes u consider those slugs in a life/death situation with dangerous game.

but in a properly controlled gun, those slugs create alot of energy and a BIG HOLE. lots more hitting surface area that will punish tissue and bone. and in a pump gun, its hard to get faster shots. i know some quick lever guys but pump shotguns can be wicked fast.

it be a hard call with either gun, but i'd feel safe. with either the 45/70 with the hot hard cast aftermarket loads, or 12 guage with big slugs, they both will get the job done. the gauge tho seems like it would be faster to get alot of shots off, but shot placement would be more important. but missed shots happen in those situations, and a missed shot from a larger bullet would be better to have than a missed shot from a small bullet

 

[jcord]

Senior Member



Join Date: 08-05-05
Location: B'tween th' Cascades & th' Pacific
Posts: 2,873 OK, another question about recoil

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, OK, I'm not keeping very good stats, but my sense is 12 ga v. .45/70 seems to be running fairly close, with a bunch of folks indicating that lives won't be lost with either (assuming reasonable skill with either gun and other disclaimers, yada yada).

So, I'm feeling comfortable with my 12 ga. It's a keeper anyway, so I can't go wrong. Check.

But just for kicks, I have a question about .45/70 recoil with the lightest rounds available (preferably factory, but if not, please specify "reload only").

(I'm asking this because I'm getting very close to buying a Marlin .30/30 which I am familiar with and like a lot, but have an option to get a .45/70 instead, but I've never shot one, only read stories . I think I know what I'm going to do, but always like to cover all options...)

Here's the question: imagine that you were going to hunt deer (etc.) with a .45/70, and prefer to use a round comparable to something in .30/30 (e.g., 170).

How would the recoil of the lightest available .45/70 rnd compare with a 170 gr .30/30?

A) about the same
B) somewhat more substantial
C) far more substantial (flinch worthy)

I bought a guide gun to deer hunt. I already have a 30-30. I used the Remington 300 grain load to kill my deer this year and its recoil was about the same as my 30-30 with hot 170s.
I like my 30-30 and have hunted with it for 30+ years, but the guide gun is just as handy and fun to shoot. The cost of ammo is the killer unless you reload. The average cost of a box of 30-30 is 12 dollars in my area. 45-70 cost 26 dollars a box. I reload both so cost is less of an issue. I bought my guide gun the week before Thankgiving and I am still in love.

 

[yooper_sjd]

i own both the 1895 (gov) .45/70 and reload for it also and a rem 870 .12 ga.
You want the reach and knockdown, go with with the .45/70. You can custom reload with upto a 505 grain projectile. but the recoil will let you know it also. But I also reload with hoped round I rather enjoy shooting also, it is .45 cal saboted .357 185 grain JHP. HOT HOT HOT. Range, Speed, and Knockdown all in one round, with a easy recoil.

.12 gage is good for close range with a slug, but if you pee off a big bear at 40 + yds with a slug gun, how steady are you at shooting at a charging 800 + lb bear charging you.

In the long run the choice is yrs. I would listen to the people that live up in that area, and go with the range and knock down power.

 

[stevelyn]

I've participated in DLP shoots on Peninsula bears. I have a .375 at my disposal if I want. In all of the DLP kills I've done, I used my 870 and Brenneke slugs with complete pass throughs on broadside and quartering shots.

If you have a shotgun you are already comfortable with, keep it and use it. You won't gain anything with a new .45-70 other than the factor and a lighter wallet. At bear defense ranges the rifle isn't going to do anything for you that your shotgun stoked with Brenneke slugs won't already do.

I will stress that using the original 1 1/8 oz Brenneke is your best bet. I've yet to recover one from a shoot. The way they are designed they tend to act like a hardcast bullet.

This year alone one of the locals had to kill two in his yard. Both were shot at close range (20 ft) with Foster slugs. One was recovered flattened out under the skin on the off side and the other exited after passing through ribs and lungs and not hitting any significant bone or muscle structure.

Fosters can work okay, but I'd rather place my bets with the Brenneke. The Alaska State Troopers also issue the Brenneke for their fish and feather folks.