45 cal pistol dies to size 30.06 & family??

[Varminterror]

Waste of energy.

I have been reloading .30-06 longer than any other cartridge, and likely in greater volume than any other non-223 centerfire rifle cartridge I have owned. I’ve never had a need to pursue this particular procedure… largely because it’s incredibly easily avoided.

1) Brass for the .30-06 is cheap and prevalent, as are reloading dies, including small base dies. If I found myself with bulged MG brass which needed push through bulge busted, I’d sell it on down the river and buy better quality/condition brass.

2) 45acp dies can be had for near zero cost. If I were to pursue this process of small base (or push through) sizing of .30-06 brass, I would not waste time wringing my hands over 4 thousandths, I’d simply buy the 45acp dies.

This endeavor seems misguided and ill-considered at every angle. If you’re shooting enough such this could remotely matter, then it doesn’t matter, because the price of a small base ‘06 or 45acp sizing die is diluted to bear-zero. If you’re not shooting much, then the cost of buying proper brass is near-zero… so there’s no paradigm in which I see true value in this process.

 

[Roverguy]

The question I have is why do your 30-06 cases have “bulges” in them? Brass fired in properly functioning Garand rifles should not need more than a regular FLS. Brass that has been fired in machine guns can frequently require a small base die to properly resize of course. But, it’s been rather a long time since there were lots of machine guns firing 30-06. So, do you have some fairly old ex-machine gun brass? I understand we are still in a component shortage and I’m as frugal as the next fellow, but if not strictly necessary, may be worth recycling it and getting some more.

If it’s not tawdry old machine gun brass, why the bulging? If it’s bulging out of a firearm that you own, doesn’t that bear some thinking on?

Otherwise, splurge on a 30-06 small base die and some Imperial Sizing Wax. Or ask the same from Santa

 

[cfullgraf]

My neighbor had that problem too. I annealed the brass for him and he was able to size them to fit. It was short lived since the brass had so much stretch he had case head separation on 1 firing.

Yes, the one's I got to chamber failed by case head separation on the first firing.

 

[Vettepilot555]

Cheery and encouraging fellows, aren't you?

;~)

Vettepilot

 

[Charlie98]

Cheery and encouraging fellows, aren't you?

;~)

Vettepilot

Everyone has to do what they think they have to do... but my question all along is very much the same as the recent comments... why is your brass so badly bulged or out of shape that a standard FL or SB die won't knock it back into shape? Roverguy said what I was thinking... there aren't many .30-06 machine guns around anymore, not like .308. My experience with machine gun fired .308 has been similar to Blue's neighbor... it sized down fine, but had other problems, so much so, that I ultimately discarded all of it for safety reasons.

I'll say it again... if you are properly sizing brass in a standard die, and it does not fit into a case gauge... then there is something else going on. Either the brass is hosed, or you have a rifle with some serious headspace or chamber problems.

 

[lgjhn]

Cheery and encouraging fellows, aren't you?

;~)

Vettepilot

Vettepilot, when you get the die and try this, let us know how it works out.
FWIW, I have a handful military 7.62 that most likely had been thru a MG. Rather than toss em, I set em aside as they were not showing any signs of case head separation.
Since I have a couple of .45acp TC dies, I may give this little trick a try myself the next time I’m in the shop and would like to compare notes to your experience.
Thanks.

 

[Vettepilot555]

I'll say it again as well. I had some rather old LC 30.06 brass that I bought at a gun shop, that more than half of would not fit my case gauge after full length sizing, twice. I assumed they had just been shot in a overly large, military chamber, and my sizing die wasn't able to take the tough, lower case area down quite enough. I very closely inspected the brass, (some with a borescope!), and felt that they were safe. So, instead of throwing them away, I set them aside. No big deal.

Now, after having discovered this little "trick", I think that I may be able to save this Lake City Match brass. No big friggin' deal one way or another, but I think it's a very cool thing to know.

So, on to .243 and .308 in AR platform guns. MANY have found that full length sizing with standard dies does not always provide smooth enough chambering for semi autos. So, you get to spend more money and buy small base dies. This trick solves that problem too. Very nice.

Lastly, if something goes "burp" on loading and you end up with a little bulge, or a tiny high spot somewhere on the case and it won't chamber, this will smooth it out and prevent you from having to disassemble it. Handy!

And the 38 Special/.357 dies will do the same benefits for 223/556 series shells.

It's all good, if you know what you're doing and stay safe. If ya don't like the idea, don't use it. Forget it and move on. I'm just sharing a tip that MANY have found useful, and don't care for your negative, condescending attitudes.

There, I've admitted you "got to me", so you can be happy, and again, move on. As will I. Thanks for the unpleasant experience.

Vettepilot

 

[Charlie98]

I'm just sharing a tip that MANY have found useful, and don't care for your negative, condescending attitudes.

Speaking just for myself... there was nothing intended as negative or condescending. Maybe I'm just dense and had a hard time wrapping my brane around what you were saying. I am a little jaded, however, against rifle brass that doesn't behave itself. As I mentioned, I had serious issues with some (likely) machine gun fired .308... so I don't fight with brass anymore. If there is a question of it's serviceability... I scrap it, and particularly if it's going into an autoloader. It's a safety thing with me.

 

[Vettepilot555]

Sorry if I was a bit "touchy". I think those to whom I was speaking got the message. To all others, I apologize.

Vettepilot

 

[Vettepilot555]

Speaking just for myself... there was nothing intended as negative or condescending. Maybe I'm just dense and had a hard time wrapping my brane around what you were saying. I am a little jaded, however, against rifle brass that doesn't behave itself. As I mentioned, I had serious issues with some (likely) machine gun fired .308... so I don't fight with brass anymore. If there is a question of it's serviceability... I scrap it, and particularly if it's going into an autoloader. It's a safety thing with me.

Sometimes a semi-auto gun will like them sized down a touch more than a standard full length sizing die will take them. It depends on the gun, it depends on your particular die, and it depends on whether you're comfortable honing or perhaps just polishing the chamber a bit if you're having a problem. This is a situation where this die trick might be useful. Note that sometimes a new auto-loader might have the problem, and when run for a while, things will smooth out and function. Then you might not need the die trick any more.

The area of the case that might cause problems, is the lower portion. I would never condone extensive annealing, trying to soften things up to get it to size down. But using this trick, if the case truly checks out otherwise, I would think would be fine.

The simple bottom line is this for me. If I have .473" base brass of any flavor, that passes all my personal safety checks, yet just won't quite seat in the cartridge gauge, I wouldn't hesitate a second to run them through a 45 acp carbide die. You are not doing anything more than running them through a tighter tolerance, stronger (carbide) die!!

Edited to add drawings.

Vettepilot

 

[PWC]

I use a 30-06 die as a universal decapper for all I handgun cartridges I reload up to 45 ACP.

I don't see how you could get a 2.484" 30-06 case in a 45 die. Case of Cinderella's step sisters trying to fit in the glass slipper.

 

[Mike Kerr]

PWC commented: "I don't see how you could get a 2.484" 30-06 case in a 45 die. Case of Cinderella's step sisters trying to fit in the glass slipper."

If you remove the decaping pin and assembly you can just use the body of the die which in Lee's case has a carbide ring at the mouth. So it will size the 06 case very well as well as other caliber's with similar case head dimensions. Useful trick.

 

[Mike Kerr]

VettePilot 555 : Thank you for the thread and for "hanging in there" for the replies. It is a good trick, well worth knowing. I have several decades of time where I knew the case head dimensions were similar or identical but never pulled my head out enough to think it thru and utilize this tip from Dogzapper. It may not be the only way to handle a tight sizing anomaly but it is well worth knowing especially for an old guy like myself who is now reloading only limited quantities of several cartridges.

Dad was a WWII Armorer whose specialty in the war was 50 caliber BMG. In the 1960's thru the 70's he had wildcat creation and wildcat cartridge knowledge out the gazoo. By the 1990's he was passing on a lot of seemingly minute bits of reloading tips to me as he was in his late 70's and 80's (some). Since I was the kid in my 50's I learned some old time tricks, but never enough.

 

[edwardware]

. . . can someone tell me. . .

I can tell you that you need two things:
1) a link to SAAMI, where you can view chamber and cartridge drawings, and not ask complex dimensional questions as if they were easy
2) an -06 body die. I made mine by cutting a spare .270 die off below the shoulder, but any die for any .470 head/.30-03 body taper cartridge will do.

Yes, .30-03. That's .30-06 and .270's daddy.

 

[Vettepilot555]

Umm, I posted the SAAMI drawings in an earlier post above. I have 30.06 body dies I made, but like this idea for sizing stubborn cases down better. For one thing, you're less likely to get a case stuck in one of these than you are cramming cases deeper into a non-carbide body die.

I had checked the drawings before I ever started the thread and asked the question. There's a .004" difference between the 45 acp and the 45 Long Colt, about which was my original question, before the thread got carried away with debating whether the idea is viable at all. Die dimensions vary. The only way to know if the 45 Colt die would work would be on the off chance that someone had actually tried it. Hence, my question.

My Lee carbide factory crimp die came in. It's perfect. You unscrew the top part and dump out the crimper part. Then there's tons of room for any brass or cartridge in the .473" family. It's got a nice, wide, strong carbide band at the very bottom for sizing. Now to find/dig out those old 30.06 oversize cases of mine. Where did I put them???

I like this die so much, I ordered another one just like it but in 38/357, to handle the 223 family of cases. Oh! I'll have to check, but that one might do 350 Legend too. That would be very cool, as sometimes those guys bulge upon loading!

Note: Instead of the 45 acp carbide decapping/sizing die, I decided to order and use the 45 acp Lee carbide factory crimp die. The bottom portion has a very nice carbide ring that sizes the case, and the top, crimper portion is easily removed. It's designed to size down any bulges that happened upon loading, as well as do a crimp. They are fairly widely respected. Around 18 bucks if you shop around. Try Titan Reloading.

Vettepilot

 

[Vettepilot555]

Hmmm... interesting. So, the 38/357 carbide die works to body size the 223. My ponder was whether it would do 350 Legend as well. While I won't know much definitively until the die I ordered arrives, I did just take the time to look up the numbers.

The answer is a qualified.... maybe/partially. The 350 Legend is loosely based on the 223, but has a larger body at the base. .390" versus .379". So the 38/357 die would size the case mouth area, which is the same as the 223 lower body at .379", but not the base. This isn't all bad. Sometimes 350 Legend cartridges bulge just a bit upon inserting the projectile, and don't want to chamber. This die might be just the ticket to iron that out if the cartridge were inserted only partially into the die. We'll see...

Vettepilot

 

[Vettepilot555]

Well, not a whole lot of interest here it seems, but I think there's possibly more people interested here than post, just because they're afraid of getting "hammered" by the "BULL-CRAP, not necessary "gurus". Oh well... if I can save someone from "tearing their hair out" some lonely afternoon at the loading bench, it would be worth a simple post on my part I guess...

Ok, so my 38/357 Lee carbide "Factory Crimp Die" arrived, and I checked it for fit. As expected, it will take the lower part of .223/556 cases down just fine. But how about utility with 350 Legend as pondered in my earlier post?

Well, using a factory loaded Winchester 350 Legend 180 grain to test/check, the results are as follows: The factory round went into the 38/357 die to a depth of about .5 caliber with light finger pressure. (.185" to be precise.) Chucking it up in my press, light pressure on the press pushed the cartridge up into the die to a depth of about .380", or a bit more than a caliber's depth. This was with very little force on the ram/press.

So, my conclusion is that this die will indeed effectively iron out any reasonable light to moderate projectile seating bulges in the case mouth area of 350 Legend cartridges. You are on your own for coming up with a stop for limiting depth of cartridge insertion in order to maintain consistency. Personally, I think this process would be entirely safe because the smallest the die can take down the cartridge at the mouth is .380", which is safely over SAAMI spec. The cartridge at spec does taper from .378" at the mouth to .390" at the base, so you will need to limit how far you insert the cartridge into this .380" die, just because of the natural taper of this caliber from case mouth to base. Setting some sort of a stop to limit how far you insert the cartridge should allow for consistent ironing of the loaded cartridge in the case mouth area, while not inserting it too far and getting into the taper. As they say; "Your mileage may vary"...

Hope this helps someone, some day. I don't think there's any carbide dies that will be helpful, but next I'm going to look into if there's anything available that will serve this same function for the 50 Beowulf cartridge. That's another one that sometimes has chambering problems due to projectles causing case bulging. Ah, those pesky auto-loaders!! Anyway, I have personally seen videos posted detailing problems people have had with 350 Legend handloaded rounds not chambering, so again, I hope this "discovery" helps.

Vettepilot

 

[Vettepilot555]

Well, no luck in the case of 50 Beowulf. No "accidentally" correct size dies that would work, and nothing at all in carbide that I could find. The 50 AE is close, but at .004" oversize would probably not work. This is speaking of sizing down the neck of a 50 Beowulf loaded round that had bulged, like my previous post about 350 Legend. Not size down the lower case body as in the 223 and 243, 308, 30.06 "tricks".

Anyway, it would be possible to just use the 50 Beowulf, (12.7x42) full length sizing die for that, but be sure to use a good case lube in order to not stick a case, and limit how far you insert the round. Note that it's not best practice to "scrunch" the brass down into the bullet like we are talking about here in the case of 350 Legend and 50 Beowulf, but if the bullet is bulging the case on you, it's one way to go. Since those two rounds headspace on the case mouth, be sure you use your calipers to double check case mouth o.d. The dies should not be able to take the case mouth down too far, but for safety, it's something you should check, plus that will let you know when you've gotten the bulge ironed out.

See ya!
;~)
Vettepilot

 

[noylj]

Smarter to buy a Lee 45 Auto FCD and use it to size or bulge bust your cases. Less case working and cases will fit fine in chamber

 

[Vettepilot555]

I think you missed what all I said.

In short:

45 acp carbide dies work to "body size" the lower portion of .473" rifle cases such as .243, .308, 30.06, etc. (It's still unknown if 45 LC dies will work as well. It's .004" larger.)

38/357 carbide dies do the same for the 223/556 family.

38/357 will also work to size down the neck area of 350 Legend loaded rounds if necessary. (See my earlier post.)

Vettepilot

 

[PWC]

Too many cautions, using work arounds. Just use the correct tool for the job at hand, or change the component or process to avoid the problem.

 

[Gus Chiggins]

Would this work on .303 brass?

 

[.308 Norma]

In short:

45 acp carbide dies work to "body size" the lower portion of .473" rifle cases such as .243, .308, 30.06, etc.

"SOME 45 ACP carbide dies work to 'body size' the lower portion of .473" rifle cases such as .243, .308, 30.06, etc."
Fixed it for you, Vettepilot.
See my post (#10 in this thread) - a 30-06 case is too long to fit up inside an RCBS 45 ACP carbide sizer die even with the decapping stem removed. I tried it.
From what I gather, you're talking about a Lee Factory Crimp Die with a carbide sizing ring in the mouth. Is that right? Or can you run a 30-06 case all the way up in any Lee .45ACP dies with a carbide rings in their mouths?

 

[kelbro]

Thanks for sharing this!

 

[Vettepilot555]

Yeah, some have already mentioned, including yourself, that not all manufacturers 45 acp dies work. I don't know if those are carbide sizing dies, which I do specify. The Lee 45 acp carbide sizing die should work, and I can personally verify that the Lee carbide factory crimp die does indeed work quite well. In either case, you remove the decapping part in the case of the normal resizing die, or the crimping parts of the factory crimp die in order for the longer rifle case to fit up through the die.

If anyone can verify which dies work and which don't, that would be great info for all those interested, and thanks!

Vettepilot