.45 Raptor - TIR

[Natsun]

How many .45 Raptor handloaders do we have here?

Have you achieved the accuracy you were searching for with your loads in your rifle?

Did you have any struggles with TIR?

I am still trying to find the accuracy I want (would love to fine <=MOA). In my searching, I have realized that my TIR is rather high on some of my ammo. As much as 0.017". I can visibly see and feel bulging on the one side of the case with many of the rounds once the bullets are seated. I've never had a crazy hard time finding accuracy with bottle-neck cartridges; the straight-wall .45 Raptor has proven to be a different case.

What combination of reloading dies have you guy(&gals) found to be most effective for handloading the .45 Raptor?

I have a Redding .460 S&W competition seater on back order, with the hopes that it will improve my TIR situation and in turn provide accuracy improvements.

Where has your .45 Raptor loading journey brought you??

 

[JayZee]

I can't vote either way, because I don't currently..but I would love to at some point. Enjoy looking at this thread, always thought it surprised me that .45Raptor never took off.

A .45Raptor is the "best" hypothetical "Bigfoot/Cryptid" hunting round...plenty of power without sacrificing capacity...

 

[Natsun]

My father uses and AR platform 450 BM for Whitetail hunting, I have always preferred a bolt-action rifle. So when I pursued procuring a straight-wall hunting rifle, I opted to go .45 Raptor (because of the maximized potential of course!!) in part because I wouldn't have to worry about my father incidentally using (450 BM) ammo I handloaded for a bolt action, in his semi-auto rifle.

Today, both my wife and I use .45 Raptors for Whitetail hunting. She is currently running the Barnes 275gr TSX, and I am running the Hornady 250gr FTX. When I get my accuracy potential maximized, I will switch to use copper projectiles as well, as I find them to offer the optimal terminal performance on game.

For target shooting, there is no doubt that the .45 Raptor puts a smile on my face when I pull the trigger and can feel the power of this rifle (something that is notably different from the typical .308 Win).

 

[dredd]

I have been running a 45 Raptor for awhile.
I got sucked in with the claim of pushing a 300/gr bullet at 2,300/fps.
I don't know if they still claim that.

I shoot the 300/gr XTP Mag.

My rig is a DPMS Platform and the 16" Saturn Barrel.
It has (had) a big muzzle brake on it and the squishy Limb Saver Pad on an A2 stock.
I could run it all day without it bothering me.
I now have a suppressor for it. More on that later.

I finally had it down to Sub-2.00" Groups at 100/yards off of the Bi-Pod.
I was also hitting a 4.00" Plate at 190/yards without a problem.

I knew that throwing a Bowling Ball would not be a tack driver.

When I first started working on a load, it was Sub-Side of Barn.

The more I shot it, the better it started grouping.
I discovered that my particular barrel liked being "dirty".

After a few outings, I barely cleaned the barrel (just a few passes to de-gunk it) and my groups went to garbage again.

I tried the suppressor out two weeks ago at a buddy's place.
Due to the ground being mush, I had to settle at 50/yards.
It cycled great.
I forgot the chrono sitting on my bench. LOL

The grouping looked to be holding at Sub-2.00"

The suppressor made it even more of a pussy cat to shoot.

NOTE:
The Raptor is a brutal round down range!!!

Do not shoot steel targets at 50 yards if you didn't buy them.
You will have to replace your friends gong! LOL

At 100 yards, it will knock the steel off of the chain hooks with ease or knock over the stand.

I have yet to get a pig with the Raptor. Hopefully soon.

So anyways..... I settled on 38.0/gr of H110 & the 300 XTP Mag. (MY LOAD ONLY) Be safe and work yours up slowly.
Without the suppressor, it is running at about 2,150/fps measured on a Labradar.

I bet it would group better with some of the more slippery profiled bullets.

I am currently happy with hitting a 4" target at almost 200 yards with a 300/gr bowling ball.

I hope this helps.

 

[dredd]

And... I haven't had any visible TIR issues.
Everything seems to be seating & going into the case just fine.
I am using Lee Dies.

 

[Demi-human]

I have the little brother, Bushmaster. While not the same, it isn’t completely different. (And my most fired rifle of 2020. I love it.)

As much as 0.017".

Yes, something is not right. To be that far out with the big stubbies borders on intentional.(I know it’s not.)
It isn’t the cartridge. But it could be the brass or your process. Do an equipment check. Stuff breaks...

What stem do you have for the seating die?
How are you expanding the case?
What are you using for brass?

How are you measuring the runout?

Crooked bullets begin with the sizing... (Well, really with the brass, but I assume there is not a lot of junk Raptor brass being produced, like .223.)

Some expanders do a much better job than others.
Getting the bullet started straight is critical. An m-die makes this step easier.

The seating stem cup should match the bullet profile well, even for pistol bullets. A flat cup stem for flat nosed only.
Is it too tight? Could it be collapsing the hollow point on one side from contacting too far up? Opening it or getting a new one could help. Contacting as close to the ogive, without becoming stuck, as possible. Maybe the Redding will help just by being different, not by being the nicer quality that they are.

Only closing the bell, no crimping. We don’t treat our ammunition as rough as some military personnel may.

Did you have any struggles with TIR?

None, yet.
Things can always go haywire though.

 

[Natsun]

And... I haven't had any visible TIR issues.
Everything seems to be seating & going into the case just fine.
I am using Lee Dies.

I have been using the Lee dies as well. I started first noticing the TIR, without having any way of measuring it, with the 240gr XTP seeing the cannelure not being aligned with the trim edge of the brass. Then I started feeling the brass and noticing the uneven bullet bulge...

I don't really know how much effect this has on downrange accuracy, but it can't be helping any, that much is sure.

 

[Natsun]

I have the little brother, Bushmaster. While not the same, it isn’t completely different. (And my most fired rifle of 2020. I love it.)


Yes, something is not right. To be that far out with the big stubbies borders on intentional.(I know it’s not.)
It isn’t the cartridge. But it could be the brass or your process. Do an equipment check. Stuff breaks...

What stem do you have for the seating die?
How are you expanding the case?
What are you using for brass?

How are you measuring the runout?

Crooked bullets begin with the sizing... (Well, really with the brass, but I assume there is not a lot of junk Raptor brass being produced, like .223.)

Some expanders do a much better job than others.
Getting the bullet started straight is critical. An m-die makes this step easier.

The seating stem cup should match the bullet profile well, even for pistol bullets. A flat cup stem for flat nosed only.
Is it too tight? Could it be collapsing the hollow point on one side from contacting too far up? Opening it or getting a new one could help. Contacting as close to the ogive, without becoming stuck, as possible. Maybe the Redding will help just by being different, not by being the nicer quality that they are.

Only closing the bell, no crimping. We don’t treat our ammunition as rough as some military personnel may.


None, yet.
Things can always go haywire though.

To be certain, something is not right. But I think it is in part due to the large tolerance ban between the ammunition components and the reloading dies. I don't see this kind of deviation in any of the other caliber's I've reloaded for.

I started noticing the runout visually, and subsequently have procured a Sinclair runout gage to be able to facilitate measurements. ​

The only commercially available brass that I am aware of (and what I am using) for the 45 Raptor is made by Starline. Sizing is with the Lee die, pretty straight-forward, being a straight-wall cartridge design. I have some ideas specific to the 45 Raptor for a new sizing die design that might provide a superior result. The biggest complaint that I have with the Lee sizer is how much it sizes (I think it is more aggressive than would be optimal).

I have been using the Lee carbide die set for the 460 S&W. I've loaded and seated both with and without expanding (using the Lee die, as well as a Hornady die borrowed from a .450 Bushmaster set (same case mouth dimensions and same projectile diameter)). So far, there is nothing that I have been able to identify as being broken or misused that is the cause of the issue, but better initial alignment is what I also believe to be the key. I have ordered a Lyman M-die, whenever that comes in stock and ships I'll be able to see what difference it makes. It's also my hope that the Redding Competition seater will support the initial alignment better, not just by being different in terms of stem geometry, but through their sleeved support design.

I prefer not to crimp, but if I am stuck expending prior to seating, then I will be running a taper crimp (this one headspaces on the case mouth).

Thanks for the input! I appreciate the well thought-out response.

 

[Demi-human]

Well, I am absolutely interested in the results of the testing, @natman.
Very curious as to what could be awry.

May the package delivery man be fleet of foot!

 

[Natsun]

Well, I am absolutely interested in the results of the testing, @natman.
Very curious as to what could be awry.

May the package delivery man be fleet of foot!

I'll be sure to update, but it may take a bit, as both dies I am awaiting are backordered from the manufacture... too many things in the guns/ammo/reloading/shooting industry are in a cluster right now.

 

[FROGO207]

Well if you get tired of waiting those dies wether steel or carbide can be opened up with some fine sandpaper and oil using a wooden dpwel with a split on the end. Might take a while and check as you go but it could be done. Just thinking out loud here.

 

[Natsun]

Has anyone tried using a .450 Bushmaster sizing die to "neck size" the .45 Raptor? I know the Bushmaster dimensions are significantly different lower on the case body (being tapered by design) but the neck is still the same size as the Raptor (same projectile diameter).

My curiosity is if this might not also serve to improve brass life.

 

[mcb]

Has anyone tried using a .450 Bushmaster sizing die to "neck size" the .45 Raptor? I know the Bushmaster dimensions are significantly different lower on the case body (being tapered by design) but the neck is still the same size as the Raptor (same projectile diameter).

My curiosity is if this might not also serve to improve brass life.

It will likely shorten case life. Unlike a bottleneck case that typically get longer with each firing a straight-walled rifle cases like 450 Bushmaster and 45 Raptor typically get shorter with each firing. The reason for this shortening is the case head is expanding and flattening. You get some (but never all) of that shortening back with a full length resizing. Try it, measure a 450 BM or 45 Raptor case before and after full length sizing and you will see you often get back just a few thousands of length. I don't own a 45 Raptor but I do a lot of 450 Bushmaster shooting and reloading and my cases die due to getting too short to headspace correctly before for they split or otherwise fail.

 

[Natsun]

It will likely shorten case life. Unlike a bottleneck case that typically get longer with each firing a straight-walled rifle cases like 450 Bushmaster and 45 Raptor typically get shorter with each firing. The reason for this shortening is the case head is expanding and flattening. You get some (but never all) of that shortening back with a full length resizing. Try it, measure a 450 BM or 45 Raptor case before and after full length sizing and you will see you often get back just a few thousands of length. I don't own a 45 Raptor but I do a lot of 450 Bushmaster shooting and reloading and my cases die due to getting too short to headspace correctly before for they split or otherwise fail.

I'm getting back ≈ .014 - .015" from fired length to sized. Could possibly be different due to the Raptor being truly a straight/cylindrical wall vs the Bushmaster being a tapered straight/conical wall.

 

[mcb]

I'm getting back ≈ .014 - .015" from fired length to sized. Could possibly be different due to the Raptor being truly a straight/cylindrical wall vs the Bushmaster being a tapered straight/conical wall.

Wow that is a lot more than I am getting with my 450 BM, I am probably only getting half that. It makes sense that the taper would making getting it back harder.

 

[Natsun]

Lyman M-die came today! Excited to try it out but... It's REALLY hard to thread into my MEC Marksman press; I don't have an issue with any other dies I've used in this press.

 

[Natsun]

The threads are tight in multiple places... There is visible thread damage mid way up. Wish I had a thread gage to check if these are in spec...

 

[dredd]

A thread gauge isn't worth messing with.

Try to deburr the threads with a file, clean, lube etc.

You are not holding the tie rods to your steering knuckles.
If they thread easily after that, all is good in my opinion.

You could also by a cheap die and chase the threads.

And... you can send them back.

I am not down playing your situation.
I'm just being realistic with this particular application.
I know this is a disappointment, but I think you can be up and running without compromising the required strength for the task at hand.

 

[Natsun]

A thread gauge isn't worth messing with.

Try to deburr the threads with a file, clean, lube etc.

You are not holding the tie rods to your steering knuckles.
If they thread easily after that, all is good in my opinion.

You could also by a cheap die and chase the threads.

And... you can send them back.

I am not down playing your situation.
I'm just being realistic with this particular application.
I know this is a disappointment, but I think you can be up and running without compromising the required strength for the task at hand.

I will probably have to get a die to chase the threads. They are tight lower down than the damaged spot. I lubed and cleaned them to try to get it to work, and I ran it in as far as I could with a leather glove wrapped around the die with vise grips. It didn't help, and I still couldn't run past the damaged spot. A die will probably be required.

 

[Demi-human]

It's REALLY hard to thread into my MEC Marksman press;

I have not experienced this. The threads may have missed a finish die. I don’t think I would force it.
Send it back.
How has the rest of the ammunition made from this press been?

Oops, system lag. I agree with @dredd. It stinks, but the easy button is call Lyman.