450 SMC, the new .45ACP +++P Beast

[sarky]

Maybe in a long slide version it would be fine, but, I am presently modifying an AR lower to take modified magazines and shoot the .45 Win Mag and perhaps the 10mm Mag

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Maybe in a long slide version it would be fine, but, I am presently modifying an AR lower to take modified magazines and shoot the .45 Win Mag and perhaps the 10mm Mag

Both sound like great ideas to me!

 

[silvermane_1]

450 SMC=45 Super Comp./45 Super w/small primer pocket.

 

[fxvr5]

450 SMC=45 Super Comp./45 Super w/small primer pocket.

450 SMC = 450 Short Magnum Cartridge.

 

[Richard Jay King]

I have been toying with 45 super in my 4506.

Would there be an advantage to using .450 brass due to its small primer pocket preventing primer flow ?

have you experienced primer flow in your 4506 shooting large primer super brass ?

I use Starline .45 super brass with normal large pistol primer pockets and have had no primer flow issues. However before I replaced the firing pin spring with a stiffer one I was seeing firing pin drag marks on the primer with my Super loads. I have had NO case deformation at all and 100 % reliability with an 18 pound recoil spring. My loads are 1230 fps with 200 grain hard cast and 1030 with 255 grain hard cast bullets. Others have loaded these bullets to higher velocities but I am very satisfied with the performance of my loads on deer and I don't intend to go higher.

 

[gotboostvr]

I use Starline .45 super brass with normal large pistol primer pockets and have had no primer flow issues. However before I replaced the firing pin spring with a stiffer one I was seeing firing pin drag marks on the primer with my Super loads. I have had NO case deformation at all and 100 % reliability with an 18 pound recoil spring. My loads are 1230 fps with 200 grain hard cast and 1030 with 255 grain hard cast bullets. Others have loaded these bullets to higher velocities but I am very satisfied with the performance of my loads on deer and I don't intend to go higher.

Would you be willing to share your data on the 255gr@1030? I've recently picked up a convertible blackhawk and that sounds like a mighty good whitetail load.

 

[NWOBHM]

Would a HK USP or hk45 handle this round?

A bit nervous such a high pressure round in a plastic pistol.

 

[fxvr5]

Would a HK USP or hk45 handle this round?

A bit nervous such a high pressure round in a plastic pistol.

HK USP = yes. I don't know enough about the HK45 to say.

The high chamber pressure has nothing to do with it. Both of these rounds have less chamber pressure than a 9mm (35,000 psi).

45 Super = 28,000 psi
450 SMC = 32,000 psi

Guns need to be set up to handle the greater recoil. The 45 Super / 450 SMC have about 75-85% more recoil than the 45 Auto cartridge.

 

[Richard Jay King]

Would you be willing to share your data on the 255gr@1030? I've recently picked up a convertible blackhawk and that sounds like a mighty good whitetail load.

;

8 grains of LongShot....This should shoot really well from your Blackhawk...I got similar velocity from 7.8 grains of PowerPistol. Both of these loads are well in excess of normal .45 acp pressures but were safe and reliable in my gun. Please understand that I make no claim for their safe performance for anyone else...I have not presssure tested these loads but my chrono and the appearance of the fired cases indicate that they are in the expected pressure levels established for .45 super loads produced by commercial ammo manufacturers.

 

[Hookeye]

Maybe in a long slide version it would be fine, but, I am presently modifying an AR lower to take modified magazines and shoot the .45 Win Mag and perhaps the 10mm Mag

Think you can run a reg lower and mag.
These guys do a .45 winmag AR.
Give em a call as to what needs modified.

http://bazookabrothers.com/pages/home/1

I suggested it to one of their buds way back.
Dunno if that's how they started doing em or what.

Now w HP rifle legal for deer here in IN (private ground), the winmag AR15 is probably novelty status.
Meets the PCR spec...........but so does other stuff.

 

[NWOBHM]

Are these the same as regular 45+P rds?
Or are these 450smcs’ higher and faster than the 45 +p?
Same as the 45 super?

Thanks for all your help.

 

[gotboostvr]

Are these the same as regular 45+P rds?
Or are these 450smcs’ higher and faster than the 45 +p?
Same as the 45 super?

Thanks for all your help.

They're beyond even the 45Super. They're the "next step up" in terms of power/ pressure.

NOT for typical factory service pistols.

 

[fxvr5]

The 450 SMC is loaded to the highest pressure, higher than 45 +P, higher than 45 Super.

As a result, it pushes bullets faster.

Some information here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_Super

And especially here: https://www.shootingillustrated.com...0-smc-a-potent-practical-defensive-cartridge/

 

[NWOBHM]

How is the HK USP and itsppastic frame able to handle these rounds?
Will I need a stiffer recoil spring to shoot these?

Most companies will NOT allow this, Amd if they found out warranty would be banned.

???
I’m at loss for words.

 

[fxvr5]

How is the HK USP and itsppastic frame able to handle these rounds?
Will I need a stiffer recoil spring to shoot these? Yes. Coelho recommends a 16 lb spring. (Factory is 13 lbs) However, H&K currently recommends that people don't shoot the Super/SMC in H&Ks.

Most companies will NOT allow this, Amd if they found out warranty would be banned. (Possibly/probably)

???
I’m at loss for words.

Many full sized and some midsized guns can be set up for the 45 Super/450 SMC. A few factory 1911s were made specifically for these rounds.

Recoil is a bit more than a full powered 10mm. Guns will take a beating if just using stronger springs, etc. The better way to protect the gun is with a compensator, but they add weight and length to the gun. In the end, it's up to the user to decide if they want to use these rounds or not.

 

[Richard Jay King]

How is the HK USP and itsppastic frame able to handle these rounds?
Will I need a stiffer recoil spring to shoot these?

Most companies will NOT allow this, Amd if they found out warranty would be banned.

???
I’m at loss for words.

Just be aware that a "stiffer" recoil spring will do little to compensate for the vastly increased slide velocity and energy. The primary factor in any recoil operated weapon is the mass of the breach block or in the case of a tilting barrel lock up auto pistol, it is the combined mass of the barrel and slide. The added mass of the comp in Roland conversions along with the reverse thrust gas cuts is what makes this conversion work. Super stiff recoil springs only make the slide come back to battery harder and faster often requiring a stronger mag spring to keep from over-running the cartridge. The .45 super, Roland and apparently the 450 smc have a much higher recoil impulse and it will transmit much more kinetic energy to the gun frame no matter what recoil spring you put in...conservation of momentum is conservation of monmentum...Most .45 acp autos CAN reliably shoot the .45 Super but I have no idea for how long before something breaks. I have no experience with the Rowland or the 450 smc...I feel sure the HK USP will shoot the Super just fine as is..but I have no idea how much it would decrease the service life. I shoot .45 Super in a big heavy Smith and Wesson 4506 but I only deer hunt with it and only shoot maybe 50 rounds per YEAR of Super loads. I feel sure the gun will outlive me..

 

[SDGlock23]

I've not shot .450 SMC but I've done a lot of work with the .45 Super. I've ran it in a few 1911's to medium levels but for me the best platform is the Glock 21, in my case with a KKM 4 port barrel. Using Starline .45 Super brass, I've ran loads anywhere from a 185gr @ 1600 fps, a 250gr @ 1350 fps and a 300gr hardcast to 1150 fps. The ported barrel is a necessity at those levels. Some have even used standard .45 ACP brass to achieve similar ballistics, but I stuck with .45 Super brass.

300gr hardcast (Beartooth bullet):
View attachment 848904

Mushroomed 250gr Gold Dot, mild load @~1050-1100 fps (the one above was driven too fast, had to slow it down):
View attachment 848908

The setup:
View attachment 848906

It's accurate!
View attachment 848907

 

[silvermane_1]

450 SMC = 450 Short Magnum Cartridge.

Yes, yes it is, but like i posted 450 SMC=45 Super with small pistol primer.

 

[NWOBHM]

Ok, guess I won’t be shooting any 450smc out of my USP.
Was looking forward to it.
Don’t want to see the cheap plastic frame melt, or crack up in my hand.

I guess +P is my only option then.

 

[bowman1966]

Anyone have any load data for the 450SMC?

 

[WestKentucky]

When I was toying with the ideas of a large format Glock, I was looking at a Rowland conversion on a g20 frame. As much as I liked that idea I just couldn’t believe that the gun would hold the pressure for long. This is right in the same ballpark. Seems like it might be a good fit for one of the Glock conversions with a heavy forward comp and ported barrel.

 

[Snowdog]

I love learning about new cartridges, but often it seems the new fodder coming out only overlaps (and sometimes replicates) existing cartridges.

It seems to me, for the most part, this is one of those cartridges. In terms of ballistics, the .460 Rowland seems to do everything the .450 SMC does and more.

I'll give some examples below but from what I can figure, it boils down to the .460 Rowland being the same overall length as the .450 SMC yet operates as a max pressure of 40,000 PSI whereas the .450 SMC tops out at 32,000 PSI.

The velocities listed above in the OP for the .450 SMC are from a 16" barrel. From typical handgun length barrels, here are some numbers to kick around (approx 5" barrels)

185gr JHP

.450 SMC (Double Tap) 1350 FPS 749 ft/lbs

.460 Rowland (Underwood) 1575 FPS 1019 ft/lbs



230gr JHP

.450 SMC (Double Tap) 1130 FPS 652 ft/lbs

.460 Rowland (Underwood) 1400 FPS 1001 ft/lbs


255gr Hardcast

.450 SMC (Double Tap) 1030 FPS 601 ft/lbs

.460 Rowland (Underwood) 1300 FPS 957 ft/lbs


Considering the ballistics above, I simply don't see a niche for the .450 SMC. If the .460 Rowland is viewed as overpowered, a reloader can address that with ease to replicate the milder ballistics of the .450 SMC. It does necessitate the use of .460 Rowland brass (and corresponding barrel), but this also prevents the user from sticking the .460 in his unconverted 1911 and soiling his pants or worse.

The only concern for reloaders of the .460 Rowland is the issue of primer flow. However, being the rounds listed above are all factory loads, this shouldn't pose a problem.

A few years ago, I converted a Springfield XDm 5.25 .45acp to .460 Rowland. A replacement barrel/compensator and recoil spring was all that was needed.
I purchased a couple hundred rounds of "Johnny's 240gr Magnum JHP" off Rowland's official website for $60-ish/50. It's a 240gr JHP (designed for high velocity) at 1300 FPS for 901 Ft/lbs. Recoil is more substantial than the .45acp but nothing like one would expect with such ballistics. I don't think it will beat up a modern-manufactured handgun. Unfortunately, the muzzle blast is obnoxious for an automatic. Firing at an indoor range is nearly as disruptive to others as my AR pistol.

I can honestly say I've fired this pistol less than 50 times as I still have a few round left from the first box. I used to carry this for trail use since 13+1 rounds of something within .44 mag ballistic territory sounded swell. And it was... but I carry the RIA 10mm for such use now simply as I have more rounds through it (I reload for the 10mm, not the .460 Rowland... yet).

Images of cartridges below pulled from AR15.com

 

[Razzi]

I've not shot .450 SMC but I've done a lot of work with the .45 Super. I've ran it in a few 1911's to medium levels but for me the best platform is the Glock 21, in my case with a KKM 4 port barrel. Using Starline .45 Super brass, I've ran loads anywhere from a 185gr @ 1600 fps, a 250gr @ 1350 fps and a 300gr hardcast to 1150 fps. The ported barrel is a necessity at those levels. Some have even used standard .45 ACP brass to achieve similar ballistics, but I stuck with .45 Super brass.

300gr hardcast (Beartooth bullet):
View attachment 848904

Mushroomed 250gr Gold Dot, mild load @~1050-1100 fps (the one above was driven too fast, had to slow it down):
View attachment 848908

The setup:
View attachment 848906

It's accurate!
View attachment 848907

Hi, how does using a ported barrel differ from using a compensator? I am in the process of getting a Glock 21 for a trail gun using 45 super loads and am worried that a comp or ported barrel might compromise reliable functionality.

 

[Razzi]

I've not shot .450 SMC but I've done a lot of work with the .45 Super. I've ran it in a few 1911's to medium levels but for me the best platform is the Glock 21, in my case with a KKM 4 port barrel. Using Starline .45 Super brass, I've ran loads anywhere from a 185gr @ 1600 fps, a 250gr @ 1350 fps and a 300gr hardcast to 1150 fps. The ported barrel is a necessity at those levels. Some have even used standard .45 ACP brass to achieve similar ballistics, but I stuck with .45 Super brass.

300gr hardcast (Beartooth bullet):
View attachment 848904

Mushroomed 250gr Gold Dot, mild load @~1050-1100 fps (the one above was driven too fast, had to slow it down):
View attachment 848908

The setup:
View attachment 848906

It's accurate!
View attachment 848907

Hi, how does using a ported barrel differ from using a compensator? I am in the process of getting a Glock 21 for a trail gun using 45 super loads and am worried that a comp or ported barrel might compromise reliable functionality.

 

[tark]

Exactly. An effective compensator does a lot to take velocity off the slide and even reduce the violence of the unlocking in Browning-type tilting-barrel handguns. They also save quite a bit of wear and tear on the user, too!

When I first went to work for Les, when he was still running the Springfield Armory Custom Shop, we were building race guns for Doug and Rob. They were 9x21 P-9s with three chamber comps. We had problems. The comp bled off so much energy that we had to go all the way down to a 9 # recoil spring to keep the gun from short stroking. The light spring resulted in the slide sometimes failing to strip a round out of the magazine. We went back to two chambers.