10mm vs 45acp.

[Trashyshoots]

If you don't handgun hunt I don't see you gaining much use besides 1 or 2 more rounds in a mag. However 10mms have a bark to them that makes them so much fun.

 

[d'zaster]

Go with both!!

 

[Rule3]

I always like Paul Harrell’s take on such important and complex topics and questions…

I do not watch many Tube videos but he is one guy that I find very good and he can shoot!

I see he has a 40 SW vs 45acp I would like to see a 40SW vs 10MM

 

[21H40]

YMMV but in my G20 I can shoot 40 and 10mm. I like the versatility. Also, when 9mm and 45 couldn’t be found I could find a box of 10 or 40.

 

[Trey Veston]

I always like Paul Harrell’s take on such important and complex topics and questions…

Great video! I'm a proponent of the 10mm and carry one in the woods. I would have liked to see him shoot a 200 grain hardcast 10mm in the meat test, since that's the most common bullet folks use for woods carry.

Probably a video on it somewhere by someone.

 

[Buzznrose]

Great video! I'm a proponent of the 10mm and carry one in the woods. I would have liked to see him shoot a 200 grain hardcast 10mm in the meat test, since that's the most common bullet folks use for woods carry.

Probably a video on it somewhere by someone.

 

[WestKentucky]

I can speak for meat. I killed a 200lb whitetail buck with a 10mm and my dad killed one with a .45 that was very similar in size. Both shooting truncated cones. They were pretty similar in range too. The difference between them was pretty notable. 10mm had a more pronounced wound channel where the 45 was more just a poked hole. The velocity is really the only thing that makes sense there as the 10mm was running about 400 fps faster out of my delta than out of dads series 70. The .45 bullet didn’t deform very much and was under the skin on opposite shoulder. My buck was a passing shot and I got him 3 times. Dad was a standing shot and he shot once knowing it was a good shot. 1 bullet was under the skin on opposite side and was very deformed but it hit bone. The other 2 passed through. All ammo was hand loaded and was about halfway up the load range between start and max.

I currently own one of each. A hi-point 45 and a RIA 10mm 1911. I would trust either on whitetail. I would pick the 10mm every time if given a choice for hunting purposes.

 

[Magnumite]

If I feel a real need for protection from big 4 legged critters I take a revolver in 44 Magnum. 10mm would suffice as well as a 45 Super, neither my first choice. 45 Super gives just a little more power in top end loads compared to 10mm. Nice thing about 45 Super is the only thing you need to hand load for it over the 45 ACP is some components. Same can be said about 10mm if set up to handload 40 S&W.

 

[InTheSwamp]

Ive never owned 10mm, but i have much experience with 45acp in over a dozen different guns. Does a 10mm offer a SIGNIFICANT performance increase? Paper ballistics are one thing, but is there a notable benefit? What would a 10mm do that a 45 would not? I dont really want a new caliber that doesn't offer a substantial increase in performance.

The 9 mm is your best friend, then.

 

[Bcwitt]

The 9 mm is your best friend, then.

We have gone full circle back to 9mm. Lol.

 

[InTheSwamp]

We have gone full circle back to 9mm. Lol.

The Prophets of the 45 ACP, i.e., Bill Wilson, Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers have done the same. Accuracy, repeatability and capacity trump the other stuff.

 

[S.Crockett]

The Prophets of the 45 ACP, i.e., Bill Wilson, Ken Hackathorn and Larry Vickers have done the same. Accuracy, repeatability and capacity trump the other stuff.

Actually, at their age, and they admit it, arthritic wrists and fingers “trumps the other stuff.”

The only exception I can recall to the Age & Arthritis Rule was .45 guru Jeff Cooper. He never succumbed to the “I’m old; therefore, I can only handle the minimeter.”

 

[9mmepiphany]

Some post have been removed. Take this as a warning going forward.

Let's stay focused on the OP's question without bringing up TV shows or attacking other members

 

[WrongHanded]

The big problem I had with 10mm, is that once I bought one and started reloading and handloading for it, my .45s became obsolete.

10mm works at a higher maximum pressure and therefore has a larger window for working energy. Maybe that's worth it to you, and maybe it's not.

 

[beeenbag]

Here is another visual to use for comparison. Little bit of soft tissue to look at.

 

[WVRJ]

I have two 10MM's and two 45's.A 4 inch striker gun and a 5 inch 1911 in each caliber.I can't say much about either cartridge for hunting or bear defense because I haven't got a shot at a deer with any of them.I have a 4 inch M&P 2.0 in the 10,and it's a lot of pistol packed in a small package.Recoil is stout but manageable,and the 15+1 capacity is plenty.That many rounds of 10MM is pretty comforting to carry.My Sig P320 compact in 45 has a similar length barrel but with the compact grip it's 9+1.In the 1911's,both rounds are 8+1,so the 10 doesn't gain much over the 45 as far as capacity.I'd be willing to take the 10 to 50 or maybe 75 yards on a deer,but I'd probsbly want to stay within 40 yards with the 45.I've often said a 4 inch 357 mag would be the absolute bottom I would use for deer,and the 10 does have a little bit more and the 45 is just a touch less.I'll have to wait until fall to try them on deer.Last year I carried my 10 a lot,even have the 1911 set up with a red dot for better shooting in low light,but I couldn't get the right kind of shot set up during buck season and I got my quota in doe season with my long range rifles.

 

[Mr.Revolverguy]

Hope this helps some

I just could not leave well enough alone. After using a close friend Springfield V16 to do the original testing against 45ACP. https://dayattherange.com/?p=5966 I just couldn’t leave well enough alone. It has always been in the back of my mind is there room enough for 45Super and 10MM or do they serve the same purpose even bigger than that which one is best? Would you know it I was able to get my hands on a Para Elite Hunter 6in 10MM


Now it is on, somewhat a level playing field to 6inch 1911’s.


Though the 6in Springfield V16 Long Slide is ported which many believe will hurt velocity. I to subscribe to this theory though I would be remiss to say I have seen ported barrels of same length produce greater velocity than non-ported. Like many things IT DEPENDS https://dayattherange.com/?p=2925 oh but I digress.

UNDERWOOD VS REVOLVERGUY RELOADS
I first want to begin by stating this was not an attempt to duplicate the great ammunition Underwood has become.



This truly was to add a little excitement to the video with my own favorite hand-loads in both calibers.

This data is not intended to replace the appropriate reloading manuals data and should not be used without verifying and double checking the loads between two different official published reference points IE reloading manuals. If you elect to utilize any of this data it is at your own risk.

10MM 135gr Nosler, 10gr CFE Pistol, Winchester Large Pistol Primer, COAL 1.250

45Super 185grXTP, 10.8gr Power Pistol Winchester Large Pistol Primer, COAL 1.245

and here are the result from all four





10MM Handloads



GEL TESTING
UNDERWOOD 230GR AVERAGE VELOCITY 1109FPS PENETRATED 12IN IN CLEAR BALLISTICS GEL


MR. REVOLVERGUY HANDLOADS 45 SUPER 1292FPS PENETRATED 16IN OF CLEAR BALLISTICS GEL



10MM UNDERWOOD 1347FPS PENETRATED 15IN OF CLEAR BALLISTICS GEL


10MM REVOLVERGUY HANDLOADS 1554FPS PENETRATED 11IN OF CLEAR BALLISTICS GEL


I do love the way my 45Super loads performed but not so much the 10MM load. See it here in live action


MORE TO COME
After many comments about the porting of the Springfield hurting velocity I have the all out to a few friends for another pistol with a 6inch barrel capable of handling 45Super. Keep your fingers crossed because not many pistols are capable of 45Super pressure without heavy modification.

 

[WrongHanded]

I did a few quick calculations based on the results of one of my own 10mm loads (just following Alliant data) and a fast moving .45acp.

The 10mm load is a 155gr at 1290fps from a G29.

For the .45acp I'm being a little generous and assuming a 230gr at 900fps from a G30.

Putting both through this recoil calculator....

https://shooterscalculator.com/recoil-calculator.php

...and using a gun weight of 1.8lbs and powder charge of 8grs (both of which seem fair), I found the .45acp had slightly more recoil across the board. But the difference was negligible.

The power factor for the .45acp is 20.7, which is hardly more than the 20.0 of the 10mm. Not much difference.

The energy however, is very different. 414ftlbs for the .45acp, versus 572ftlbs for the 10mm load. A difference of 158ftlbs.

The 10mm load is nothing special, whilst the .45acp load is pretty typical from a longer barrel than the 3.8" of the compact large frame Glocks. On paper the recoil is so close as to not matter. The difference is all in attainable velocity and the energy created from it. How much that matters to a person, will determine whether they think 10mm is worth something over .45acp.

 

[S.Crockett]

* * *

The energy however, is very different. 414ftlbs for the .45acp, versus 572ftlbs for the 10mm load. A difference of 158ftlbs.
The 10mm load is nothing special, whilst the .45acp load is pretty typical from a longer barrel than the 3.8" of the compact large frame Glocks. On paper the recoil is so close as to not matter. The difference is all in attainable velocity and the energy created from it. How much that matters to a person, will determine whether they think 10mm is worth something over .45acp.

Another factor that can’t be discounted which favors the 10mm is its better sectional density. That means a relatively heavy 10mm projectile, launched at real 10mm velocities, will have superior penetrative ability over the typically slower, heavier 45acp projectile.

Against paper targets, the advantage is irrelevant. Where it matters is against real-world hardened targets or intermediate barriers imposed between the projectile and the target, … things like heavy winter/layered clothing, leather gear, wood of various densities, metal and auto glass, … or in the animal world, layers of dense fatty tissue, sinew, and of course heavy bone.

Below, a veteran bear guides describes how 14-rds of .45acp failed to penetrate the fur and fatty layers on a huge wounded black bear:

TRUTH ABOUT 10MM & BEARS - YouTube

 

[Ks5shooter]

As a Glock Guy I have been looking for a G29 gen 3. Didn't want to spend aton on a deer season sidearm for bear medicine. Found a used as new one for $355 shipped to my FFL. Before I carried 45acp. I like the extra capacity.

 

[WrongHanded]

Another factor that can’t be discounted which favors the 10mm is its better sectional density. That means a relatively heavy 10mm projectile, launched at real 10mm velocities, will have superior penetrative ability over the typically slower, heavier 45acp projectile.

Having thought about this a little (and finally watching the video), it seems to me that when comparing the two, sectional density is not the prime factor. I doubt the relatively small difference in sectional density between a .45 230gr solid and a 10mm 220gr solid (the highest SD a 10mm can get) is going to matter nearly as much as the difference of velocity, energy, and momentum.

But I've never bear hunted, so perhaps the video is correct and .45acp solids don't penetrate bear hide and fat. Although the video also seems to suggest (or rather outright states) that a charging bear stopped its charge and stood on its hind legs exposing its chest long enough for the guide to put 4 rounds of 10mm in a tight group in the thoracic cavity. That would be very odd behavior of a bear. I'm personally very skeptical of almost everything in that video.

 

[WisBorn]

As a THR enabler I would recommend that you try a 10mm.
I purchased my first 10mm a few months ago and like it so far!
My 45acp love goes way back. It is my favorite auto loading cartridge.

I think they fit different roles, but if you only want one the 10mm has the advantage with its additional energy.
That said, I will probably always have a 45acp. The 9mms would leave the collection first.
Enjoy your new 10mm....

 

[21H40]

I like the range of options that 10mm offers compared to the 45, especially if you consider the 10mm short offerings (40 S&W).

 

[WisBorn]

I like the range of options that 10mm offers compared to the 45, especially if you consider the 10mm short offerings (40 S&W).

I will say that there is a good range of bullet weights and types for the 45, but there is a bunch of options for the 10mm also.

 

[S.Crockett]

Having thought about this a little (and finally watching the video), it seems to me that when comparing the two, sectional density is not the prime factor. I doubt the relatively small difference in sectional density between a .45 230gr solid and a 10mm 220gr solid (the highest SD a 10mm can get) is going to matter nearly as much as the difference of velocity, energy, and momentum.

Never said it was the "prime factor" between the two cartridges. One factor among several.

The 10mm's better SD is clearly an advantage over the .45. Combine that with the 10mm's velocity/energy advantage when firing relatively similar bullet-weights (e.g., 220 10mm vs. 230 .45), and the result is deeper more thorough penetration by the 10mm, all other things being equal.

But I've never bear hunted, so perhaps the video is correct and .45acp solids don't penetrate bear hide and fat. Although the video also seems to suggest (or rather outright states) that a charging bear stopped its charge and stood on its hind legs exposing its chest long enough for the guide to put 4 rounds of 10mm in a tight group in the thoracic cavity.

After the bear had run around taking multiple (ineffective) hits, it stood upright, per the 25-year black bear guide in the video, at which point he fired his 10mm Kimber. Yes, as he stated, 4x COM hits.

That would be very odd behavior of a bear. I'm personally very skeptical of almost everything in that video.

Not necessarily for a heavily wounded bear being tracked.

But the video is what it is, so ....