.45acp vs .40 Most Penetration?

[Bigmike79]

True, although the various Bond's did carry many different kinds of pistols over the decades. Generally it is those small pocket pistols for accuracy, conceal-ability, weight and round count.
You can carry more .25/.32/.380 than you can .40 or .45 and they weigh less. Of course this is important for an agent but not so much for the average joe on the street, I suppose. I still like the semantics of it.

The follow up of the .45 is probably due to the velocity and extra grains. That means more velocity and quicker travel time, shorter barrel exposure, faster time to target. Less time in the barrel and faster overall traveling time means faster consecutive shots. Where the recoil/muzzle rise comes into play is from the grain count, that is where the accuracy loss is: in the muzzle rise. What I mean by follow up shots is not necessarily how fast you can shoot the bullets with the gun, but rather how many bullets you are putting on target or in the same bullet hole. With less recoil and less muzzle drift/rise you can put more follow up shots on the same spots, you can't do that with a .40 or .45 because the recoil/muzzle rise affects accuracy directly. With those pocket pistols, you can put the whole magazine in the 6 ring in a few seconds, much harder to do with a heavy .45. Of course this also depends on your physical ability and endurance, as well. A smaller person will be able to use a .380 or .32 much better than a .45 and a larger person might think those are too small but the reality is those pocket pistols are just right for special agents needs. Every thing is a matter of personal circumstances and preference more so than actual 'technical superiority'. Things are designed for certain effect and to fit a certain application or fill a need. Stuff in the world hasn't been made "to be better" for about 60 years now (since all the old guys are complacent with the old tech they grew up with, they see it as fine for us and have blocked all technological progress. We live in a monopoly so old people can make "money" and feel good and important -- nothing is actually technologically progressed with a direct tie to corporate control. This is why you don't see Individuals designing firearms any more and why the government is trying to make it criminal. You can't gain control without complacency and dead ends, for, if someone can just improvise or innovate beyond your means of control then the reigns don't work and the crooks don't like that.

What on Earth are you talking about? This is a pretty epic word salad of unfounded incorrect nonsense. How old are you kid?

James Bond first carried a 25ACP because it's a movie, and the writers didn't do their homework. They later went to the PPK because they wanted Bond to have a "gentleman's gun." That was the image they created for him rather than having him carry a Browning High Power or a S&W model 36 revolver like actual British agents of the day. I only know this because I actually watched a special on this many years ago.

 

[cp1969]

I can't speak for 40 S&W, but when comparing 124 grain 9mm and 230 grain 45acp FMJ rounds, the 45 will penetrate further into soft targets like pumpkins, but the 9mm will penetrate through hard barriers like a cinder block or car door more effective

I have experienced this, too.

 

[RecoilRob]

Remember too that all 45 Ball isn't created equal. There have been many cases of average sized men stopping several 45's which at the time I found incredible as they 'should' penetrate better than this. Then after reading some chrono tests and doing my own it became apparent that some 45 Ball is coming out of a 5" barrel well below 800 fps and out of a shorter barrel even slower. Full power 230's should be about 875 fps out of the 5" O-frame and will dig quite a bit deeper than the much slower ones....assuming bullets that are tough enough to hold together.

I've not played with many 40's...but do know the 200 grain 10mm TC's as originally loaded by Norma had the potential to penetrate pretty well but I'm not sure how well the bullets would take hitting really tough things like bones and might deform enough to compromise their further penetration. The hard-cast bullets in either caliber driven to similar velocities 'should' be pretty similar in potential I'd imagine.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

I've heard that the .40 will penetrate pretty well unless right as it begins to hit the target you yell out "More like 'short and weak!' Get thyself a 10mm!" At which point the .40 will bounce off.

That is correct.

 

[JR24]

I've heard that the .40 will penetrate pretty well unless right as it begins to hit the target you yell out "More like 'short and weak!' Get thyself a 10mm!" At which point the .40 will bounce off.

This is correct. Assuming, of course that the .40 doesn't KABOOM in your hands upon pulling the trigger.

 

[cougar1717]

I feel like I'm always the one posting this link, but I have no stake in LG at all... I just like their data.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests
Now, before the internet responds with, "Actually, [enter quippy retort that discounts some minute detail because it occurs 2% of the time]," look at the cartridges that they tested that did not effectively expand in both 40S&W and 45acp.
For instance, the 40S&W Remington HTP's in both 155 and 180gr went clear through the block (32") and didn't really expand at all.
While the 45acp data doesn't indicate that any made a "full pull," the 200 gr Sig V-crown had a 5 shot average of 31.2"
From the data, we can see that penetration is ammo dependent, but that splitting hairs is required to compare. Both are equally matched. Seven of the tested 40S&W loads averaged over 25" of penetration. Four of the 45acp did the same. Seven versus four isn't the point, there's no need for comparison there. Penetration over 25" is definitely in the "oops" category of bullets that didn't expand. The point is that both can attain similar maximum penetration values.
So the next questions, internet, are:
How far would the HTP's have gone if the gel block was longer?
What if different firearms were tested?
What about my Buffalo bore whatever vs some straw man light load like WWB?
200's vs 230's?
I will leave those up to you! The data shows the cartridges are relatively equal in maximum penetration.

 

[Fiv3r]

This is correct. Assuming, of course that the .40 doesn't KABOOM in your hands upon pulling the trigger.

Well I'd never shoot it out of Glock. We all know the 23 has been hollowed out from the recoil assembly to the striker. Also the frame is balsa wood painted black.

 

[saiga308]

Which has deeper penetration with FMJ ammo? I've heard it both ways and cant seem to find any definitive tests.

40 cal travels much deeper then the 45 cal
video time 5:20 only 3 2x4 s

 

[saiga308]

video time 3:22 cinder block test 45 cal is lame

Which has deeper penetration with FMJ ammo? I've heard it both ways and cant seem to find any definitive tests.

 

[JR24]

I guess the OP didn't specify hard barriers or soft tissue.

Since there was question, I assumed soft as it is well established 45 has more issues with hard barriers vs lighter/faster rounds.

 

[saiga308]

I guess the OP didn't specify hard barriers or soft tissue.

Since there was question, I assumed soft as it is well established 45 has more issues with hard barriers vs lighter/faster rounds.

i use a 45 cal for short distances protection and 40 cal for longer range distance open scenarios

 

[reddog81]

Lucky Gunner has ballistic test results on their website. they have a number of .40 and .45 rounds in their test. There's more variation from the various brands of ammo than there is from the 2 calibers. Most of the ammo they tested is of "self defense" rounds and many of the bullets expanded, however I would assume you could look at the penetration of the bullets that did not expand and assume FMJ results would be similar. The penetration varies from about 20 to 29 inches.

 

[JR24]

i use a 45 cal for short distances protection and 40 cal for longer range distance open scenarios

Fair.

Personally if I need more range than a .45 gives me, I'm in the field and in addition to a long gun (hunting) I skip the .40 and go to 10mm or a magnum.

 

[SDGlock23]

I guess if you're trying to maximize both you'd run hardcast lead, maybe 250gr in .45 ACP and 200gr in .40 (both have same sectional density). I don't know which would penetrate deeper, but some of the warmer .40's I've loaded would run a 200gr hardcast at 1,155 fps from a 4" Glock 23 (w/KKM barrel). As for 250gr cast .45 ACP, I don't really know because most of what I've played with has been .45 Super (even going up to 300gr). Whether it's a .40 running a 200gr @ 1100+ or a .45 running a 250gr @ 1000+, both will cut through a lot of mean and bones, so I'm not sure it really matters.

 

[Zerodefect]

.40 has more pen in everything I've shot.

.45 dumps energy quicker, and is less likely to overpen. Sometimes it fails a barrier, but not enough to be a practical worry.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

FMJ? 40 S&W FMJ bullets are flat nose. Given the same sectional density and velocity a flat nose .40 S&W bullet will penetrate deeper than .45 ACP FMJ roundnose because the flat meplat of the .40 S&W bullet propels soft tissue/gelatin radially away from the bullet, which means less soft tissue/gelatin comes into direct contact with the bullet. This results in less drag and greater penetration.

 

[murf]

In FMJ ammo, you need to consider bullet shape. Typically, a truncated cone bullet will penetrate deeper than the traditional round nose ball ammo, mostly because it will tend to drive straight, while a round nose will often veer off course. Nearly all .40 S&W "ball" rounds have a truncated cone bullet, but you can find them in .45 ACP. Semi-wadcutters would also be expected to penetrate better than ball rounds.

Here's the theory explained with big game hunting bullets. http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlepvdw.html

fully agree here. 45 acp ball ammo will tumble and not penetrate. the round nose flat point, or semi wadcutter bullet types will give more, and more consistent, penetration, imo.

luck,

murf

 

[murf]

The higher the grain count, the harder the felt recoil and the slower the follow up shot. Never forget that.
You want the proper grain to match your chosen projectile otherwise you're just putting extra recoil into your hand/arm that you don't even need, which only gives you more muzzle rise and thus less accuracy.

So, if a .40 with 200 grains can do what a .45 with 255 grains can do, I'd choose the .40 almost every time. This is why James Bond carried a .380, he could put all 8 shots right where he wanted them -- super accurate with little to no recoil. It is about where you are shooting, not how fast or how hard it hits, or whatever.

no, you have not allowed for the reduced velocity in the heavier bullets. recoil includes bullet mass and bullet velocity. when you load up a 255 grain slug in your 45acp, velocity will have to decrease to stay within the pressure limits of the cartridge.

and the recoil will stay the same.

murf

 

[MachIVshooter]

@MarkIVshooter Yeah, but penetration can mean different things to different people. The FBI obviously doesn't want armor penetrating rounds, but when you say 'penetration' to someone like me, that is exactly what we think.

On this board, in the context of defensive handgun use, it is tacit that discussions surrounding penetration of a given round means in tissue, not through armor. If another medium is being discussed, it is explicitly noted.

 

[Jackal]

On this board, in the context of defensive handgun use, it is tacit that discussions surrounding penetration of a given round means in tissue, not through armor. If another medium is being discussed, it is explicitly noted.

It IS kind of hard to claim self defense if you are shooting through hard barriers... Then again, maybe we just don't have the armor clad bears and cybernetically enhanced tweakers in these parts. Not sure why handgun discussions always devolve into barrier or armor penetration. Its not really within the purview of self defense.

 

[tipoc]

I'm attaching a couple of pages from the Brass Fetcher website. Here you can read and watch videos discussing penetration and expansion of the 45 acp, the 40 S&W and the 9mm. You'll note that Brass Fetcher uses both 10% ballistic gelatin and 20% ballistic gelatin. The former is what is used by the FBI, law enforcement and widely in the international firearms industry for testing and developing bullets and loads. It is the standard against which penetration and expansion is judged. It is meant to simulate human tissue in it's density. 20% ballistic gelatin is what the some depts. (exactly who I don't know) of the military use in evaluating handgun and rifle rounds and is denser.

Brass Fetcher uses calibrated ballistic gel. They fire a small bb, of a set weight and at a set velocity, into each clock of gel and measure. This is a standard international method to insure that each block is closely identical to the next one.

Other sites use clear ballistic gel which is less dense and do not calibrate that gel.

A lot of information here and the videos are at the bottom, as well as pages on other calibers.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/9mm Luger/9mm Luger.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/40 S&W/40 S&W.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Handguns/45 ACP/45 ACP.html

 

[Danoobie]

.40 has more pen in everything I've shot.

.45 dumps energy quicker, and is less likely to overpen. Sometimes it fails a barrier, but not enough to be a practical worry.

My tests, which also are not conclusive, indicate that the 45ACP is a very effective man-stopper, but almost bad at penetration,
when compared to the faster, smaller 40 and 9mm. When I have to make a burn barrel, I start the holes with a 9mm. It penetrates
both sides of the barrel. Sometimes the 45 will penetrate the barrel, on one side, but usually it just makes a big dent. Same for
LP tanks from old BBQ grills. The 40 has much better penetration. How that stacks it up as a SD caliber may be another story.

 

[Archie]

Also, James Bond carried a little Beretta-418 25acp before later upgrading to a PPK in 32acp.

Mike, James Bond had a more sympathetic script writer than I ever did.

 

[Archie]

All things being equal the bullet with the highest Sectional Density will penetrate deeper. Looking at Hornady's website a 180 Gr 40 caliber bullet has a SD of .161, a 230 gr 45 caliber bullet, .162. Seems like a tie to me.

If you go up to the 200 gr in 40 caliber it has a SD of .179 and should penetrate deeper.

This is correct as far as it goes. Which is not a backward way of saying it's wrong.

I have no idea of what Jackal wants to achieve; so I'll play it straight.

First. The material to be penetrated. A single surface, relatively thin material (car door, wall of bucket or oil barrel, bullet resistant vest) is most likely dependent on impact velocity. The faster, the better. Secondarily, surface area or diameter of the object doing the penetration. Skinnier is better. Third factor is projectile shape. Pointy is better, however a full wadcutter tends to simply cut through the barrier while a round nose tends to deform the barrier and 'drag' through, loosing energy in the process. (I trust no one is shocked so far.)

If the target is a relatively deep mass of homogenous material (dirt, water, animal bodies, wood) sectional density (SD) is the largest factor. The heaviest weight to diameter (longest) is the best pick.
Bullet shape makes a difference, pointy again is preferred for penetration. Bullet material matters some, jacketed is better than lead and tends not to general as much friction. Oddly, velocity is not as important as one might think. Too much velocity will cause the bullet to deform while penetrating or expand overmuch. Hunters of large dangerous game tend to prefer a rifle velocity of between 2000 and 2400 fps, with many preferring a 'goal' velocity of 2200.

In the instant case of .45 ACP and .40 S&W, it's quite even depending on bullet weight.

As noted, the 180 grain, .400" and the 230 grain, .452" bullet have sectional density values close enough to be equal. At equal impact (not muzzle) velocities the truncated cone shape of the .40 S&W probably has an advantage over the RNJ shape of the .45 ACP in a single surface. Of course, one needs to verify the actual velocities from each pistol under discussion. By using a lighter, but similarly shaped bullet going faster in the .40, one would expect it to penetrate more easily than the larger caliber.
With a homologous target, the situation would likely be reversed. The greater SD bullet will likely penetrate further.

As with anything there will be anomalies. I have not done much of this sort of testing lately with handguns and probably won't in the future.

 

[SharpDog]

I would absolutely love to see a live stream of you stopping a bear with a .22.

It would depend on the weight of the gun and how hard and accurately he could throw it