5.56x45 or 7.62x39?

[35 Whelen]

At or inside of 300 yards, is there an appreciable difference in terminal performance? And if so, which one is superior? And please bear in mind that I'm talking about FMJ, not expanding projectiles.

I can't bring myself to read through four pages of this recurring discussion, so I may have missed it; Terminal performance in WHAT? Chipmunks? Deer? Hogs? Two-legged threats?

I guess the most demanding situation by which to judge these two would be shooting swine.

Here around the house, especially in fall and winter, there are always old lone boars roaming around and I've sent quite a few of them to that mudhole in the sky, in fact four from December to February. For such pests, as well as love-struck bucks who wander too close, I keep in the laundry room gun rack a bolt .223 stoked with 65 gr. SP handloads and an as-issued SKS stoked with 123 gr. SP handloads. Every time I shoot one of these boars I drag them a 1/2 mile or so from the house and cut them open so the coyotes can get started on them. It never ceases to amaze me how thick and tough their hide is. Experience has taught me that I have to be very careful with shot placement when using the .223 because penetration is quite limited with the small, fast projectiles. On the other hand, I shot a large one a couple of months ago with the SKS and handloads and he bled enough that not only could I easily follow the trail, I could actually smell the blood. That has never happened with the .223.

In defense of the .223/5.56 you can throw all the "ifs", "ands" and "buts" out there you want, but when comparing like projectiles from these two cartridges, the one that weighs twice as much and is almost 40% larger in diameter will be my pick every time because the potential for more penetration is far more important to me than little exploding bullet.

Somewhat anecdotal, but I have a close friend and a cousin who are constantly shooting hogs, and I mean CONSTANTLY, with the latter actually set up to do so at night. Both of them have abandoned their 5.56's because they simply doesn't work as well as larger caliber bullets.

35W

 

[481]

Another factor to consider is overpenetration. 7.62x39 (especially FMJ) will blow through walls and mess up your neighbor's day.

Yep, kind of like the gun, EM-1, that Arnold Schwarzenegger's character used in ''Eraser''.

The EM-1 pretty much blew through everything that it encountered, the 7.62x39 seems to be pretty good at duplicating the EM-1's performance.

The future is now.

 

[Ignition Override]

Does this help answer the OP's question, for whichever purpose?
At least some varieties of plate wobble can be seen, fwiw.

This skilled shooter uses Many other rifles in various videos: iron sights only.
If these two videos can't help at all, because of variables in where the plates are hit etc, ---then skip all of this.---
These are probably fmj bullets. That's for You gents to find out..

At 1:43, impact on standard gong at 300 yards. Naturally, it will be difficult for some people to be objective about the cartridge because of the rifle.

AK103 Iron Sights to 500yds: Practical Accuracy (Saiga 7.62 base rifle) - YouTube


At 1:50, impacts on the same gong from 300 yards with an AR. But I've not tried to compare where the gong is hit, or how much it wobbles.

M4A1 Iron Sights (MA Tech) to 500yds: Practical Accuracy (FN15 Standard rifle) - YouTube

 

[CoalTrain49]

Russian military ditched the 7.62x39 a long time ago. The AK-47 legend still lingers in the 30 cal club..

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

I like his videos.

 

[DeepSouth]

In defense of the .223/5.56 you can throw all the "ifs", "ands" and "buts" out there you want, but when comparing like projectiles from these two cartridges, the one that weighs twice as much and is almost 40% larger in diameter will be my pick every time because the potential for more penetration is far more important to me than little exploding bullet.

Yep. It really is that simple.

But to be honest I’m biased, I believe the 5.56 is easily the most over rated cartridge available. There is a reason it wasn’t very popular before the AR craze hit during/after the AWB.

 

[valnar]

But to be honest I’m biased, I believe the 5.56 is easily the most over rated cartridge available. There is a reason it wasn’t very popular before the AR craze hit during/after the AWB.

One way to test that theory... Had 6.5 Grendel (for example) been the common AR15 cartridge since the 1960's, would a brand new 5.56 cartridge have displaced it with the public?

 

[DeepSouth]

One way to test that theory... Had 6.5 Grendel (for example) been the common AR15 cartridge since the 1960's, would a brand new 5.56 cartridge have displaced it with the public?

I absolutely believe it would have, the platform made the difference. If it would have been 222 that’s what we’d be discussing now.

 

[d2wing]

The 5.56 NATO was developed from the.222. Not a fan of videos but I have had several AK and SKS type rifles. Most were 4 MOA or worse. The exception was a Saiga. The Saiga was sub 3 MOA at 100 yards and better with good ammo and a scope.

 

[Bcwitt]

FMJ’s generally suck for killing anything.

I’d rather have a 5.56, personally.

Russian military ditched the 7.62x39 a long time ago. The AK-47 legend still lingers in the 30 cal club..

They still use it in some units.

 

[C-grunt]

Im not too worried about how hard the rounds hit steel. Out to any range you can reliably hit a guy, both will go completely through them.

I'm more interested in weight, recoil, and external ballistics. I prefer the lighter weight, flatter shooting, less affected by wind, and lower recoil.

 

[WisBorn]

Ok, this is an idea that I hope that I don't get persecuted for:
https://www.springfield-armory.com/m1a-series-rifles/m


If the goal is a fun range gun that can step in as a defense weapon that has authority?
How about an M1A from Springfield Arms in 308! The ammo is readily available in FMJ and basically any other bullet type that is desired. It's very accurate for a defense platform. Fun to shoot! Is no more expensive to enjoy (you normally don't blow off a hundred rounds of 308 per range session like 7.62 or 5.56). Yes, the gun price starts off higher but retains that value.
Terminal performance it is a winner!!!

Just a thought

 

[valnar]

Yer home better be in the boonies if .308 is a home defense weapon.

 

[WisBorn]

Yer home better be in the boonies if .308 is a home defense weapon.

If you are using a rifle for home defense you better live in the boonies!!!!
My home defense tools are handguns. I don't load a shotgun anymore.

 

[WrongHanded]

Ok, this is an idea that I hope that I don't get persecuted for:
https://www.springfield-armory.com/m1a-series-rifles/m
View attachment 1142182

If the goal is a fun range gun that can step in as a defense weapon that has authority?
How about an M1A from Springfield Arms in 308! The ammo is readily available in FMJ and basically any other bullet type that is desired. It's very accurate for a defense platform. Fun to shoot! Is no more expensive to enjoy (you normally don't blow off a hundred rounds of 308 per range session like 7.62 or 5.56). Yes, the gun price starts off higher but retains that value.
Terminal performance it is a winner!!!

Just a thought

Nice thought. Though I've already had my M1A and M1 Garand fun. We're also looking at higher ammo costs. The LRB Arms I once had was very good though. Just heavy and a little too long to be handy. The metal butt plate wasn't much fun either.

I'm getting an AK. But as people have been speculating a little about accuracy requirements, I'll be shooting at a 12" steel gong more than anything else. If I can't reliably hit it at 300 yards, I'll just have to check zero and work on my fundamentals. Both of which seem like a good idea anyway.

 

[CoalTrain49]

They still use it in some units.

Probably in some reserve units. The US Navy still had M-1 Garands in the 70's. No, not M-14's, M-1's. The army replaced the M-1 in 1957.

I'm talking about the standard rifle for the Russian military. I doubt the Russians are making anymore AK-47's.

 

[WisBorn]

Nice thought. Though I've already had my M1A and M1 Garand fun. We're also looking at higher ammo costs. The LRB Arms I once had was very good though. Just heavy and a little too long to be handy. The metal butt plate wasn't much fun either.

I'm getting an AK. But as people have been speculating a little about accuracy requirements, I'll be shooting at a 12" steel gong more than anything else. If I can't reliably hit it at 300 yards, I'll just have to check zero and work on my fundamentals. Both of which seem like a good idea anyway.

I hear you with the steel gong. The range I shot at in IL had a half silhouette at 250 yards. It was a ton of fun ringing the gong with my Mosin Nagant with open sights

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I doubt my old Norinco AK would have hit a 12" gong very often at 300 yards! The sights were pretty bad, and nowadays I'm not sure I could hit that gong with any rifle with open sights.

 

[Hokkmike]

I'm not saying I'm going to buy an AK (though I'm certainly not buying an AR, so don't even bother), but if I did but an AK I would consider these two cartridges, with no thoughts given to the 5.45x39. I know that the 7.62x39 will probably never be super cheap again. I know the 5.56x45 may be more available in the foreseeable future. This is not about price or availability, it's about performance.

At or inside of 300 yards, is there an appreciable difference in terminal performance? And if so, which one is superior? And please bear in mind that I'm talking about FMJ, not expanding projectiles.

I guess it is possible that they are the same. The voters seem to think so.

 

[WrongHanded]

I doubt my old Norinco AK would have hit a 12" gong very often at 300 yards! The sights were pretty bad, and nowadays I'm not sure I could hit that gong with any rifle with open sights.

I'm looking at Zastava and PSA (GF4 or GF5).

 

[WisBorn]

https://palmettostatearmory.com/ble...classic-rifle-nutmeg-w-10-mags-rifle-bag.html

I like the nutmeg stock!

When I lived in South Carolina I volunteered as a RSO at a range only 20 miles from a PSA store. We saw a lot of PSA guns. I don't remember any problems with their AK rifles.

 

[Bcwitt]

I'm looking at Zastava and PSA (GF4 or GF5).

Zastava is one of the best available.

 

[BreechFace]

Zastava is one of the best available.

Agree with what’s available Zastava is a great choice, I prefer the WBP over them, but one would be served well by either.

Of what is available right now I would look into:

WBP
Zastava
VZ58 (tech not an AK, but splitting hairs)
PSA Romanian parts kit AK
PSA 4/5

My PSA Gen 5 has been great, but if I were to only own one AK I would look for a WBP in the above list just to have one with a country with history behind the platform.

The WBP are Polish made with Radom barrels you can get the WBP Jack 7.62SC which has no side optic mount for cleaner lines if you are only desiring to shoot irons or they have a Jack that has a side optic mount if you want to future proof your needs some.

 

[BreechFace]

Good online vendors of aK’s to deal with are:

Atlantic Firearms
Arms of America

Just browsed Atlantic and they have Hungarian AK63F’s in stock, these just have just come in. Tempting…

Atlantic also has a decent selection of VZ58’s which are great, but not an AK, short stroke, different bolt setup, striker fired rather than hammer fired and they take their own style of magazines, but if one doesn’t desire to have a lot of mags they are a great option for what you desire I would think.

 

[BreechFace]

Whatever you do avoid anything that’s says Century Arms on it, unless in person and can look it over.

The only items I would buy that states century on it would be some of the Yugo parts kits they brought in but outsourced the demil/assembly/922r compliance work out to DC Industries (Coonan, NoDak Spud) back in the day those are solid because Century didn’t touch them other than to receive and resell. The above would have DC Industries below Century Arms.