5 shot 12 Gauge 00 Buck vs 30 Round AR15 for Home Defense

[KBintheSLC]

The shotgun wins IMO. And #4 buck is a decent performer, especially if over-penetration is a concern. It is for me because I live in a townhouse with neighbors to the left, right, and beneath us. Here is a little test...
http://brasstard.com/2009/12/21/12-gauge-defense-00-buck-vs-4-buck-vs-birdshot/

 

[Black Toe Knives]

Since number 4 shot is .24" (6 mm)n at 1000 fps in size and an AR15 is .223(5.6mm) at 4000fps. How does this effect the debate over penetration.

 

[geologist]

Short barreled shotguns can be legally stored unloaded and trigger locked in Canada. With a combination trigger lock and buckshot in a keypad safe it can be legally compliant and yet quickly deployed from your bedroom closet.

AR rifles are "restricted in status so they must be both trigger locked AND locked in a cabinet.

I prefer the 12 ga pump with OO buckshot since it will penetrate less than a 5.56 ball round in my urban house.

 

[CSA 357]

my house gun is (2) mod 12 winchesters loaded with #4 buck, but the ar 15s are sitting real close too! buck shot will bring peace out of confusion!

 

[ThePunisher'sArmory]

Shotgun and a cell phone.......Cause if a bad guy hears you rack the slide while the gun is pointed at him.....You probably will not even fire a shot. At that point dial the cops with a speaker phone option.....Unless he runs and jumps out the nearest window.

geologist....How can such a beautiful country have such ugly, stupid gun laws?

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

besides shooting birds, there is no situation where a shotgun is better than a rifle.

 

[Grunt Medic TXARNG]

When engaging quick, fleeting targets at close range while minimizing danger to third parties beyong the target, I submit that a shotgun is indeed a valid option.

 

[LAK]

Which one would you use and why. I chose the 12 Gauge because it released more lead faster. I can send 9 .30 cal. bullets down a hall with one trigger pull. I can follow up with 45 more rounds in four more trigger pulls.

AR15. More precise, more versatile, and should the need arise far better range.

I am thinking about switch to Number 4 Buckshot because 41 rds are better than 9. This will increase my bullet count to 204 rds verses 54 rounds.

Any thoughts on size of Buckshot?

I would stick with 000. Better penetration. Your targets might be very heavily built wielding their own weapons/arms out in front of them, at oblique angles, wearing heavy clothing, using cover at some stage, etc.

-------------------------------------

Je Suis Prest

 

[goon]

I'd feel comfortable with either, but out of the two I'd choose the AR if I could afford it. I'd load it with a round that would probably explosively fragment upon impact and call it a day.
If I couldn't afford to replace an AR (like you're going to have to do if you shoot an intruder with it), I'd go with the pump action 12 gauge loaded with No.4 Buck and with a few slugs available. I think generally a rifle is better and actually more versatile, but inside of 100 yards a shotgun is plenty effective.

 

[RX-178]

Here's my take on it:

A key attribute to any defensive firearm is stopping power. In a handgun you sacrifice stopping power for concealability, and in a rifle you're sacrificing raw stopping power for range and accuracy.

Shotguns, you have stopping power in spades. You can't conceal it, and you can't hit 200 yard targets with it, but you don't NEED either of those attributes for home defense. Shotguns are also CHEAP, for the most part. Cheaper than rifles.

If you already HAVE an AR-15, there's probably no real reason to spend even more $$$ on a shotgun for home defense. If you don't have either yet, you can spend $200 on a good pump shotgun, or $700 or so on an AR-15.

 

[Girodin]

besides shooting birds, there is no situation where a shotgun is better than a rifle.

Breaching doors, never seen a rifle used for that purpose, I've seen a lot of shotguns

Hunting in a shotgun only area a shotgun is better in that it wont land you in legal trouble

 

[Grunt Medic TXARNG]

Since number 4 shot is .24" (6 mm)n at 1000 fps in size and an AR15 is .223(5.6mm) at 4000fps. How does this effect the debate over penetration.

The debate is not about penetration per se, but about relative risk to others. I submit that those .24" lead shot will lose velocity quickly over relatively short range, while that .223" bullet will retain velocity over a much greater range - which is why service rifle matches are shot at 600 yards while tactical shotgun matches seldom exceed 50 yards unless the stage calls for a select slug drill.

 

[egg250]

To address some of the overpenetration discussion, 5.56mm military ball ammunition will penetrate up to 18 inches of dirt/sandbags and still have the energy to cause damage on the other side. Any 5.56/223 FMJ type ammunition (except frangible) will penetrate every wooden wall in your house. It is a long range assualt weapon intended for use at man sized targets 200 - 500 meters away. That's why the rear sights on a M-16 are marked and calibrated for ranges 200 to 800 meters. Anything past 500 meters is considered to be an area target (troop formation, house, etc). The AR family is not suitable as a home defense/CQB weapon. If a long arm is desired and a shotgun not preferred I would suggest a pistol caliber carbine with a suitable magazine capacity.

12 gauge shotgun slugs will do the same, except they don't have anywhere near the range of an AR and are intended for use at ranges up to 100 yards (depending on your slug gun). Still not suitable for home defense. Buckshot loses its energy very quickly and is most effective at ranges less than 50 yards.

Lastly, there has been some criticism that "racking your shotgun in attempt to frighten the attacker/invader is not a wise opinion." I'd like to address that.

- Yes, it lets the bad guy know where you are. It also lets the bad guy know that you are armed with a hefty weapon that will put a hurt on him. Any bad guy worth his salt has already scoped your home out and has a great idea where all the bedrooms are. He may not know that you have the capability and intent to defend yourself.

- Don't assume that all bad guys are crazy or doped up. They are "professionals" trying to earn a living at their trade. I don't know of anyone who wants to die while earning a living. Something else, if he breaks in your house when you are home, he is either stupid or intends to do you harm. Once again, that eerie sound of chambering a round will get his attention.

-From a legal standpoint, you can't simply assume that anyone in your house illegally intends to you harm and start blasting away. Some states have Castle Laws which allow that but not all. In some states the homeowner has a requirement to announce his presence and positively ID any weapon the attacker has before you can use deadly force. Otherwise, depending on the state you live in, you could find yourself being found guilty of murder. This will bring up the "better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6" argument. It is a fine debate up until the point that the 12 judging you find you guilty and you are now spending the next 20 years of your life in prison.

 

[macadore]

Concerning the over penetration of the 5.56. I have shot several prairie dogs with 5.56 52 grain hp and the rounds always fragment. Do any of you know of incidents where someone was injured by a 5.56 after it passed through its intended target?

 

[epijunkie67]

Since number 4 shot is .24" (6 mm)n at 1000 fps in size and an AR15 is .223(5.6mm) at 4000fps. How does this effect the debate over penetration.

I believe the main difference is the .223 is supposed to become unstable in flight after hitting the first wall. It would thus no longer be making .223 holes but full length holes as it tumbles end over end. It would lose velocity quickly under those circumstances.

I remember "the box of truth" tested this at one time alongside 12 gauge slugs and buckshot but I don't remember the results.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

When engaging quick, fleeting targets at close range while minimizing danger to third parties beyong the target, I submit that a shotgun is indeed a valid option.

There we agree. its just not any better than a rifle, and worse than many rifles.

 

[JTH]

Should have both, that is a decent 12 ga. shotgun and a high capacity semi-auto rifle, doesn't necessairly have to be an AR because I don't have one but I sure would like one to go along with my SKS, AK. The weapons you have should have a specific functional job purpose!!!
JT

 

[goon]

Other end of the payload issue...
OK, so I agree that it's possible to miss and send a 5.56 round through a wall. If you miss with a load of 00 buck, you've just sent somewhere between 8 and 12 .32 caliber projectiles through the same wall. I can't imagine that being any better for the occupants of the adjacent room.
I think if you don't miss, assuming you choose your ammo carefully, neither is really that much more dangerous in terms of overpenetration.

For my uses, in my ideal world, I'd probably be using the rifle as my HD long gun. I generally don't need a shotgun for what I do with guns. I do consider a good rifle mandatory. Therefore, the rifle will be doing double duty as a HD gun. But I don't think it really matters which you choose in the vast majority of cases.

 

[BBQLS1]

Both have their place. It depends on your home/layout and the tactics employed as well as the user. Neither is really better.

Shotguns are cheap, have lots of brutal power, lots of recoil, can be short stroked (if it's a pump), low round capacity (compared to a 30 round AR), are generally longer, have lots of brutal power, and have lots of brutal power..... did I mention they have lots of brutal power?

ARs are more expensive, easier to control (less recoil), offer lots of rounds, generally a smaller wound channel, they are shorter and easier to manuver (if we are talking a short rifle), and offer quicker follow up shots.

Weapon lights are good if you learn how to use them..... You should probably identify your target before touching the trigger.

In general, if your selected round won't penetrate drywall, I wouldn't expect it to penetrate enough bad guy. The only exception may be the AR in 5.56 as it has the unique property of tumbling when it hits the first board allowing for nastyness on the target, and rapid loss of energy when on drywall. That doesn't mean it's safe to use on drywall, but may provide better margin. Your tactics/strategy should consider the other occupants of the home and neighbors. All that being said..... in a shotgun give me 00 buck.

 

[Youngster]

I'm a shotgunner but i'd still have to go with the AR, a 5 shot pump is just an awefully dated format compared to a military style semiauto rifle.

Now if we were comparing the AR to a good semiauto shotgun, especially a box or drum mag fed job like the Saiga, then I'd lean more towards a shotgun.

Having said that, while I keep both 5 shot pumps and a carbine within easy reach at home, i'm much more likely to reach for a shotgun if trouble strikes because my rifle is in 7.62x39 and has way too penetration for HD purposes.

If I had an appropriate 5.56 rifle, I'd use that because of its limited penetration but I don't really have a use for anything in that caliber otherwise.

 

[Erik M]

AR. Its what I am used to. huge ammo advantage. easier to maneuver in tight spaces. No neighbors or people in adjacent rooms.

 

[Wolfeye]

We use a shotgun in our house. It's what my wife can handle, it fits in our budget, and it makes us better armed than the average pro burglar in our area. (And yes, we've talked to local cops about them.) The first round is bird shot, followed up by #4 buckshot in case that doesn't do the job. I honestly don't see over penetration being a problem with that setup, and it has to be a consideration being that we basically live in the suburbs.

I'm much more of a hunter than a tactical kind of guy, and my view is slanted: I don't see an AR15 as a suitable home defense gun, not unless you live in the boonies and it's the only rifle you have. .223 has suitable stopping power for varmints, not human-sized animals. I want a cartridge that will stop a bad guy NOW, and I don't want to depend on him dropping because he knows that's what people in movies do. Also, it's a round that was designed to penetrate kevlar armor at 300 yards. Unless you use ammo that turns to dust when it hits drywall, I would not want to be your neighbor when you have a break-in.

Sorry if that sounded angry. I'm not; it's just what my sensibilities dictate. The gun you shoot best is what you should depend on.

 

[COLOSHOOTR]

To address some of the overpenetration discussion, 5.56mm military ball ammunition will penetrate up to 18 inches of dirt/sandbags and still have the energy to cause damage on the other side. Any 5.56/223 FMJ type ammunition (except frangible) will penetrate every wooden wall in your house. It is a long range assualt weapon intended for use at man sized targets 200 - 500 meters away. That's why the rear sights on a M-16 are marked and calibrated for ranges 200 to 800 meters. Anything past 500 meters is considered to be an area target (troop formation, house, etc). The AR family is not suitable as a home defense/CQB weapon. If a long arm is desired and a shotgun not preferred I would suggest a pistol caliber carbine with a suitable magazine capacity.

Maybe with 62gr M855 that has that mild steel core designed to penetrate but I don't see a standard 55gr M193 going though sandbags and doing much damage on the other side.... After barrier penetration the lighter .225/5.56 rounds tend to lose a lot of energy and start to tumble. There is still a high risk of injury with a miss but the reduced energy means there is less of a chance of a lethal hit. Use soft points or hollow points and now you have reduced the risk even further.

A well know ammo manufacture held a ballistic lab at our range. During the test the .45 and 9mm hollow points had more penetration then the .223 SP and HP rounds. No 00 buck was shot at the test but one tactical rifled slug was fired and it went through the block exited high and hit the cealing. Plus, after lots of testing and evaliation almost every single SWAT team in the country has gone to a 5.56 carbine over the pistol caliber MP5 submachine guns for urban entry operations. If the 5.56 was so dangerous for use inside due to penetration issues would Department SWAT teams actually adopt it especially after spending lots of $$$ testing it to see if it's better for the kind of work they do?

 

[midtennpawnstar]

Remington 870 express mag tactical cant go wrong or get you a mossberg 500 personal tactical to save a few bucks its just as good a gun if not better......and a 410 would be just a good as well with some buckshot in it hats why for the money you should go taurus judge or public defender whichever you prefer...45 long colt and 410 youd be fine

 

[Ryder]

I was hit in the head with shotgun pellets once. They bounced off. I probably wouldn't be here if that was a rifle.

2700fps >> 1300fsp

I take home defense very serious. That's no time for half measures and if I'm holding a shotgun for self-defense it will be loaded with slugs.