fastbolt
Member
Until such time as the company's legal dept changes its mind about putting the ILS on all revolvers with exposed hammers, don't hold your breath.
5 shot revolver enough against 5 robbers
- Thread starter Stevel
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Until such time as the company's legal dept changes its mind about putting the ILS on all revolvers with exposed hammers, don't hold your breath.
Miami_JBT
Member
Well, then as I said. More used pre-lock S&W for me! I have literally one of the final N-Frames to ever leave the factory without a lock. The Model 29-9 Heritage Series. The 29-8 was the model that introduced the lock, but the 29-9 was a Performance Center build that was contracted with Lew Horton before S&W changed hands to Saf-T-Hammer and the lock was mandated on all the guns. As such, since only 176 were contracted to be made, the egg-heads over at S&W decided to let the Heritage Series guns be made without the lock as per the original contract.
fastbolt
Member
I've been told that there's still an element within the company that would like to see exposed-hammer revolvers offered without the ILS. As long as corporate decides to take the advice of their legal dept, though, it's probably not something going to happen any time soon.
Also, as long as the ILS-equipped revolvers continue to sell well, it's not like they're losing market share of revolver sales. The customer demographic who might be said to comprise the 'traditionalist' element is aging and being replaced by younger buyers who may not care about the aesthetics of the ILS.
The 'traditionalist' demographic is cheerfully inflating the pricing of the remaining older revolvers, too. The world goes 'round.
Miami_JBT
Member
In some cases, an empty gun is better than a loaded gun. Have you seen the ballistics of the .41 Remington Rimfire for the old double-barreled derringers? I think throwing the gun has more force than the bullet it shoots.
Miami_JBT
Member
I talk to a lot of younger shooters. They're getting into wheel guns because they're bored with GLOCK clones and AR builds. A number of them are flocking to Ruger and Colt because they don't have locks.I've been told that there's still an element within the company that would like to see exposed-hammer revolvers offered without the ILS. As long as corporate decides to take the advice of their legal dept, though, it's probably not something going to happen any time soon.
Also, as long as the ILS-equipped revolvers continue to sell well, it's not like they're losing market share of revolver sales. The customer demographic who might be said to comprise the 'traditionalist' element is aging and being replaced by younger buyers who may not care about the aesthetics of the ILS.
The 'traditionalist' demographic is cheerfully inflating the pricing of the remaining older revolvers, too. The world goes 'round.
luv2safari
Member
Absolutely!
I grew up in the days of Llama, Bernardelli, Astra and the like. 32 a.c.p was the common denominator. We've come a long way for what is a short trip.
fastbolt
Member
A number of new wheelgun owners have always kept the other gun makers in business.
Nothing new.Ruger has always sold their fair share of wheelguns. However, Ruger has also been experiencing their own QC issues, too. My brother, who has long been a Ruger fan, did a lot of grumbling when he was looking to buy a NIB GP100, because of all the guns he examined in display cases were rejected for QC issues. Well, that can happen when you're churning out more models in a market that's still warm.
Colt? Now that they've hopefully got past their teething pains with their new model revolvers, there's still plenty of room in the wheelgun market for them to make a return.
S&W is doing okay. Perhaps not as well during the peak panic buying in '20-'21, but then inflation and covid also hammered things a bit.
FWIW, I only own ONE S&W revolver with the ILS, myself. As an armorer I'm familiar with the system, and back when I bought mine ('05), I took it apart and inspected it, and even (for practice) replaced the little dog-legged torque lock spring in the locking arm with a newly revised spring. I've run cases of .38SPL and +P through it, and a few hundred Magnum, and it's still perking right along (and passes inspection). Matter of fact, it's the M&P 340 I'm taking today, since my other M&P 340, which doesn't have the ILS, is still fouled from my last LEOSA qual.
I may not care for the ILS strictly from the perspective that it adds another 5 parts that weren't necessary for the normal operation, but that's just me.
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@drobs the liquor store video you posted is included in this thread I did awhile back:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/do-examples-incidents-matter-to-you.902897/
A dozen examples where 5 shots (hits) failed to quickly incapacitate a single attacker wouldn't matter so some, trying to encourage better is mostly futile IME.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/do-examples-incidents-matter-to-you.902897/
A dozen examples where 5 shots (hits) failed to quickly incapacitate a single attacker wouldn't matter so some, trying to encourage better is mostly futile IME.
Most guns used to stop a crime don't need to be fired at the time, which leads to the "1) Have a gun".
A single threat might be stopped with a low capacity handgun, but as the number of threats and their intent become greater capacity, caliber, and type of firearm become more important, "2) Have enough gun".
How do you know before the treat appears that it is going to and what it is going to be? "3) Carry as much gun as you can comfortably and use reliably"
Miami_JBT
Member
I'm carrying my 1970s era Charter Arms Bulldog in .44 Special with a Mixson leather dump pouch holding an extra five rounds. And you know what? I feel adequately armed.
jmorris
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I find making your misses cost you a reload makes you shoot a bit tighter at times.
www.youtube.com
Tx Star vs. old guy with revolver
www.youtube.com
BreechFace
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First of all, glad there are store owners who aren't willing to sit idly by and let the ghouls win. I know this will elicit a response of, "that's what insurance is for," or "is anything in that store worth one's life?" Well, we are quickly becoming a society without rule of law, and soon it will come down to who fights for what is right against those who wish to live in an immoral, dog eat dog world with progressive statist's that wish to disarm the law abiding and congratulate the ghouls with turning them back on the streets after their crimes without prosecution and paying their debts to society.
Thing's I noticed not relating to the firearm is:
1. There was situational awareness of the store's owner/employees. The recognized the women playing the role as "scout," or had cameras trained on the two backed in awkwardly parked G-rides outside as they had employees ready to barricade/lock the door behind her, before her accomplices showed up. Also, the fact the cops were showing up as they were leaving means the employees/owner had adequate time to phone 911.
2. The layout of the store is really advantageous to allowing time for rear store employees behind the valuables to get ready as it appears the front of the store is a quagmire of furniture for sale.
My takeaways for the store owner is:
1. Add side folding security grilles that can be secured behind the weak glass doors, the two employees could have been ready to shut those as the "scout" cleared the threshold.
2. Siren and lights that can be actuated quickly with a push of a button at the back.
3. Design storefront with the furniture layout where there is no quick access to the back valuables.
4. Train my employees to seek cover if ghouls gain entrance into the store passed the front security protocols
5. I would be carrying on my person a semi-auto handgun with at least 15+1 with a spare magazine, and would have a Remington Tac-14 behind the counter.
Thing's I noticed not relating to the firearm is:
1. There was situational awareness of the store's owner/employees. The recognized the women playing the role as "scout," or had cameras trained on the two backed in awkwardly parked G-rides outside as they had employees ready to barricade/lock the door behind her, before her accomplices showed up. Also, the fact the cops were showing up as they were leaving means the employees/owner had adequate time to phone 911.
2. The layout of the store is really advantageous to allowing time for rear store employees behind the valuables to get ready as it appears the front of the store is a quagmire of furniture for sale.
My takeaways for the store owner is:
1. Add side folding security grilles that can be secured behind the weak glass doors, the two employees could have been ready to shut those as the "scout" cleared the threshold.
2. Siren and lights that can be actuated quickly with a push of a button at the back.
3. Design storefront with the furniture layout where there is no quick access to the back valuables.
4. Train my employees to seek cover if ghouls gain entrance into the store passed the front security protocols
5. I would be carrying on my person a semi-auto handgun with at least 15+1 with a spare magazine, and would have a Remington Tac-14 behind the counter.
lysanderxiii
Member
Ya' know, if this is accurate, and the average hit rate is 30%, twenty to thirty rounds is required to ensure success against multiple attackers . . .
BLACKHAWKNJ
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Jeff Cooper emphasized the Combat Mindset, the ability to go from Condition White to Condition Red in 3 seconds, and being able to channel Charlie Askins is part of that.
fastbolt
Member
I
There's seemingly no shortage of examples where victims using higher capacity pistols produced a lot of misses and few, if any, hits.
Rather than obsess on capacity, why not obsess on skillset? (Hint: Because skillset doesn't come out of a box. It requires investment of time, energy and usually more money than the cost of the gear.
Someone can get an instant 20% increase in ammunition capacity by upgrading from a 5-shot to 6-shot revolver, too. (Remember the old Colt D adds?) Even more going to a 7 or 8-shot revolver ... or a 7 or 8rd pistol. Want 100%? Go to a pistol with a 10rd magazine. Want to really nudge the percentage increase into higher 3 digits? Get a 15-17rd magazine (where legal). All any of that may really mean is having more opportunity to panic and send missed rounds all over hell's half acre.
If someone wants to prioritize, I'd usually suggest (as a relatively recently retired firearms instructor) that they invest the time, effort & money to develop their foundation skillset - and then invest in enough recurrent practice to maintain it. Then, consider if ammunition capacity is as important to them as any/all other factors involving handgun selection. If that means revising their initial choice of handgun, then so be it. Revolvers of various sizes, or pistols with single & double stack magazines and corresponding capacities, it's still about having the ability under stress and horrific conditions to make solid, accurate and effective hits. Once that skill and mindset is achieved, suit yourself on how many rounds you wish to have available before having to reload. It comes down to personal preference and where someone is willing to compromise ... meaning within the already-existing compromise of carrying a handgun.
I've certainly carried my fair share of issued and personally-owned higher and lower capacity pistols, as well as 6-5 shot revolvers of various sizes and calibers. Having done all that for so many years, I've settled into mostly considering revolvers and lower capacity pistols (6-10rd magazines) as being suitable for my retirement CCW use. I think everyone ought to suit themselves, though ... and accept whatever potential consequences may result from their choices.
It's just a centerfire handgun.
There's seemingly no shortage of examples where victims using higher capacity pistols produced a lot of misses and few, if any, hits.
Rather than obsess on capacity, why not obsess on skillset? (Hint: Because skillset doesn't come out of a box. It requires investment of time, energy and usually more money than the cost of the gear.
Someone can get an instant 20% increase in ammunition capacity by upgrading from a 5-shot to 6-shot revolver, too.
(Remember the old Colt D adds?) Even more going to a 7 or 8-shot revolver ... or a 7 or 8rd pistol. Want 100%? Go to a pistol with a 10rd magazine. Want to really nudge the percentage increase into higher 3 digits? Get a 15-17rd magazine (where legal). All any of that may really mean is having more opportunity to panic and send missed rounds all over hell's half acre.If someone wants to prioritize, I'd usually suggest (as a relatively recently retired firearms instructor) that they invest the time, effort & money to develop their foundation skillset - and then invest in enough recurrent practice to maintain it. Then, consider if ammunition capacity is as important to them as any/all other factors involving handgun selection. If that means revising their initial choice of handgun, then so be it. Revolvers of various sizes, or pistols with single & double stack magazines and corresponding capacities, it's still about having the ability under stress and horrific conditions to make solid, accurate and effective hits. Once that skill and mindset is achieved, suit yourself on how many rounds you wish to have available before having to reload. It comes down to personal preference and where someone is willing to compromise ... meaning within the already-existing compromise of carrying a handgun.
I've certainly carried my fair share of issued and personally-owned higher and lower capacity pistols, as well as 6-5 shot revolvers of various sizes and calibers. Having done all that for so many years, I've settled into mostly considering revolvers and lower capacity pistols (6-10rd magazines) as being suitable for my retirement CCW use. I think everyone ought to suit themselves, though ... and accept whatever potential consequences may result from their choices.
It's just a centerfire handgun.
.38 Special
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The issue isn't really about accuracy at the shooting range, but rather, people dumping a mag in a panic during a self-defense scenario. The old saying is something like "If you've got 'em, you'll use 'em", and we see that quite a bit in defensive and police shootings. Is that sense of "bottomless magazines" a source of the abysmal hit rates seen on the street? I honestly don't know, and don't know if there are any comparable statistics from the revolver age. I just don't buy the argument that everyone can expect to shoot terribly in a self-defense scenario, and so needs as many rounds as possible.
From what I see in shooting videos, people tend to shoot very fast when they are worried about dying. I haven't been able to tell that they are more disciplined when shooting a low capacity firearm so the difference is just that they run dry faster when they have fewer shots.
Shooting "terribly" is sort of a relative thing. People definitely don't shoot as well as they do on the range--just as one would expect, but it is certainly true that some shoot better than others. As noted, having "as many rounds as possible" probably won't be a huge benefit to a defender because they will likely get killed or injured before they have a chance to expend a ton of ammunition. On the other hand, given the fact that people tend to shoot a lot worse when moving to avoid being killed and shooting at someone who is moving to avoid being killed than they do at the range, it also doesn't make sense to limit one's carry gun to so few rounds that it becomes very unlikely that they will be able to make the hits necessary to resolve a relatively simple two-determined attacker scenario.
I agree. The idea that someone who only has five shots is going to stand cool and collected and make every round count is a myth. Spray and pray is a software issue, not a hardware one.
FWIW one of the reasons NYPD started authorizing SA pistols to the troops was an incident, IIRC, in a beauty salon. A woman NYPD officer was getting her hair done. 3 BGs, I don't remember how many were armed decided they were going to rob the place. She put 1 in each and served 2 of them with another round. 2 stopped then and there. One of them (unsure if he got one or two) shot her. Fortunately, she survived and all BGs were apprehended.
Shortly after NYPD authorized SA autos. But with 10 rd magazines and only FMJ.
Shortly after NYPD authorized SA autos. But with 10 rd magazines and only FMJ.
FWIW, I know of a incident where an Air Marshal was in a fast food place that was getting robbed by one BG and he shot 11 rds from his G26 in under 3 seconds.
