Newtosavage
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That 7.62x39 with 125 Accubonds is legit deer medicine.
Oh, and stupid accurate to boot.
Oh, and stupid accurate to boot.
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6.5 Grendel vs. .243 Winchester - hmmm
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Newtosavage
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Actually, if I could put either of my Mini's in a Savage or Tikka factory stock, it would be a sub 6 lb. rig, and that's with the scope. The Hogue stock is anything but light.The weight savings is in that $50 Hogue hollow stock.
Newtosavage
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As a proud Tikka owner, I figured someone would bring up the Tikka. That's not a very fair comparison because if short action Tikkas were available, guys like me looking for a lightweight mountain rifle surely would have picked that option. Even still, the "long action" Tikka is still lighter than any traditional short or long action.
CoalTrain49
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Chassis might be the way to go. I considered that after I hefted a guys Mini at the range. Never pursued it after I bought my 1500 HB and put a B&C stock on it.
cdb1
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Lighter than any Kimber? I think it is a fair comparison because Tikka’s are pretty light as it is and I don’t think if Tikka made a short action it would be very much lighter. I mean how light is light enough. Tikka’s are already so light there are number of cartridges I wouldn’t want to shoot in one, like a 300 WM.
A friend of mine had a 300WSM Tikka, and paid to have a brake installed.
Which is a good reason for a smaller cal/cart. One of the nastier little rifles I've shot was my wife's old .243 savage that weighted about 7lbs out the door. When loaded hot that rifle stung for some reason.
My 7lb 6x47 delivers 2800fps with 87-90 gr bullets and won't even jump off target, It's a blast to shoot goats and pigs with.
Honestly I find the "mini" rounds addictive, so take anything I say with a grain of salt lol.
Newtosavage
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That's why I said "traditional." As in Ruger, Winchester, Remington, Savage, etc. And yes, if Tikka's were available in a short action, then that's what my 7mm-08 mountain rifle would have. BTW, I owned a brand new Tikka '06 - for about 8 months until I realized I didn't want to shoot it.
LOLLoonwulf, for some reason I've always thought the .243 has a sharper kick than it should. I don't often recommend them for smaller shooters, for that reason, esp. because those shooters aren't going to need a 200-400 yard rifle.
someguy2800
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A 243 has long been the default recommendation for kids and the recoil sensitive, but if you ask me the amount of recoil you get for the amount of projectile you move are way out of proportion just because it burns so much powder. These little intermediate cartridges like the 7.62x39, 6.5 grendel, 6.8 spc 277 wolverine are a fraction of the recoil and they move more lead.
CoalTrain49
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That's why I said "traditional." As in Ruger, Winchester, Remington, Savage, etc. And yes, if Tikka's were available in a short action, then that's what my 7mm-08 mountain rifle would have. BTW, I owned a brand new Tikka '06 - for about 8 months until I realized I didn't want to shoot it.
Loonwulf, for some reason I've always thought the .243 has a sharper kick than it should. I don't often recommend them for smaller shooters, for that reason, esp. because those shooters aren't going to need a 200-400 yard rifle.
I'm 5-11 and 200 lbs. I often forget that rifles can be intimidating for younger/smaller shooters. Heck, I don't even like shooting some 30 cal rifles. A 300 WM would be a no go for me.
I'll get the job done with something else. Plenty of options out there.Newtosavage
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This is pretty much where I'm at these days. And why I'm so grateful for these little bolt action gems like the 7.62x39 and 6.5 Grendel.
Look, let's face it - we aren't going to recommend to any new shooter - especially a young shooter - that they take a shot at game beyond 200 yards. I certainly wouldn't. That's a long shot for a new shooter or a kid. Yes I know some kids make long shots - but they aren't "new" to shooting just because they are young. So my point is, if you have someone who will be limited in range and is new to shooting and likely recoil sensitive, why give them a .243? The .243 is easily a 400 yard whitetail gun, but they don't need a 400 yard gun. They probably don't even need a 200 yard whitetail gun to be honest. Most new shooters and kids take their game inside of 150 yards and usually inside of 100.
If I knew then what I know now, instead of a single shot .243, my daughter and nephew would have started hunting with a bolt action 7.62x39 or 6.5 Grendel, without a doubt.
I know this is not a new concept. Plenty of young shooters have by now taken their first game with a .300 BO or the like. But it's still relatively new to me and I'm really enjoying the "discovery."
Varminterror
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After the tone of this thread, I hesitate to point this out, but if we’re really honest, the 243win is a lot more than a 200-400yrds deer rifle, as is the 6.5 Grendel. I’ve shot many coyotes past 400, a few in the 600-700 span with Grendel’s. I wouldn’t even blink to think before I sent a 123 SST after a big Kansas Whitetail at 400, certainly no more than I would worry about sending a 243win after it.
adcoch1
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when I bought my grendel bolt gun ( a ruger american predator with ar style mag) i could have bought the exact same rifle in 6.5 creedmoor. And when I made my decision I realized I don't need a 1300 yard capable rifle right now, can't afford the optic it would require, can't afford the expensive ammo, etc. So my break out into 6.5 mm stuff is the grendel. cheap to shoot, cheap to reload, and if I really have to there is good commercial hunting ammo out there for about the same price as the creedmoor. So I went with the lesser recoil and cost for now. I may still get a creedmoor, but I need to have a lot longer range available before I go that route...
If the goal is just to kill a deer, then we can certainly conclude that death occurring at 800 yards is a reasonable expectation if the shooter's bullet strikes the deer. With adequate marksmanship and nothing to interfere with the shot, we can even imagine the kill would be at least as quick and clean as any archer's shot.
At 800 yards, a factory Hornady Grendel's 123 gr. SST bullet is going 1417 fps with 548 ft.lbs energy. A factory Hornady .243's 95 gr. SST bullet is going 1392 fps for 409 ft. lbs energy. Either one of those would be comparable to a 9mm handgun's muzzle velocity and energy. In fact, they're probably closer to .357 Sig at the muzzle. If the bullet going like that penetrates the deer's vitals, there should be little doubt the kill will be a clean one by any reasonable standard regardless of whether the hollowpoint opens at those velocities.
The factors that affect whether the shot at a deer 800 yards away is ethical or not have much less to do with whether the rifle cartridge is effective enough and a lot more to do with whether the hunter and the conditions assure with the greatest certainty that the bullet will strike the vitals. For ethical sportsmen, these factors should be of prime concern, and not so much whether they have "enough rifle." A shot at the leg or gut with a .375 H&H Magnum from 50 yards is not more ethical than a long-range shot that hits the heart with a .223.
The sportsman that concerns himself to make only clean kills by passing on shots that present an undue risk of failure in that goal would have no reason to concern himself whether he had a .243 or a Grendel. He would certainly pass on practically all shots at some range substantially less than the cartridge's capability because he knows the limitations of himself and the conditions are much lower and the principle of fair chase compels him to close range or wait for the opportunity of a more satisfactory shot.
Varminterror
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Can’t say I didn’t call it...............
CoalTrain49
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I was on the edge of buying a Grendel for a while also. I got over it.
I guess everyone has to ask the question why one and not the other. All kinds of justification can be made for either. If you already have one or the other it might just be an exercise in redundancy. If you don't have one or the other and lusting after a 6 mm or 6.5 mm bolt gun then you have to start weighing the pros and cons. If I were there I probably wouldn't choose either one. The Creedmoor looks like the cartridge du jor right now and people are falling all over themselves to buy one. Case capacity or bullet cost wouldn't be a factor either. If I spend $500 on a hunt (and I have) I certainly wouldn't be looking at saving a few bucks a year in ammo costs.
Newtosavage
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6.5 Grendel Howa Mini did this today.
Factory plastic stock (w/ aluminum pillars built in) and package Nikko Stirling Panamax scope -
Both the 120 NBT's and 123 SST's were 1/2 grain under max. (28 grains of IMR 8208 XBR) and seated as long as the little magazine will allow (about 2.35"). They were both right at 2500 fps too.
I shoot 3-shot groups for load development, and will go back and shoot 5-shot groups for final testing. I figure if a rifle won't shoot a good 3-shot group, it will never shoot a good 5-shot group. LOL
Factory plastic stock (w/ aluminum pillars built in) and package Nikko Stirling Panamax scope -
Both the 120 NBT's and 123 SST's were 1/2 grain under max. (28 grains of IMR 8208 XBR) and seated as long as the little magazine will allow (about 2.35"). They were both right at 2500 fps too.
I shoot 3-shot groups for load development, and will go back and shoot 5-shot groups for final testing. I figure if a rifle won't shoot a good 3-shot group, it will never shoot a good 5-shot group. LOL
Sebastian the Ibis
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I put together a 6.5 Grendel AR, and bought 500 rounds of ammo for under $500 ($1 per shot) total. This can be done in .22, .223, 7.62x39, 5.45x39 and 6.5 Grendel. The Grendel has the longest legs of those. I challenge anyone to do that in .243 or any caliber. Water jugs, iguanas and piggies won't know the difference.
CoalTrain49
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6.5 Grendel Howa Mini did this today.
Factory plastic stock (w/ aluminum pillars built in) and package Nikko Stirling Panamax scope -
Both the 120 NBT's and 123 SST's were 1/2 grain under max. (28 grains of IMR 8208 XBR) and seated as long as the little magazine will allow (about 2.35"). They were both right at 2500 fps too.
I shoot 3-shot groups for load development, and will go back and shoot 5-shot groups for final testing. I figure if a rifle won't shoot a good 3-shot group, it will never shoot a good 5-shot group. LOL
View attachment 814248 View attachment 814249
Hooked on those Howas huh? I know, I have two. I know a few people at my range that like to fool around with them. One guy put a MDT chassis on his Grendel Mini and said he hardly shoots his AR's anymore. He basically turned it into a LRP rifle that looks pretty cool, complete with muzzle brake.
I don't shoot my Howa Mini anymore. If I had bought a Grendel I probably would have upgraded it, 20/20 hindsight. I've since restocked my 1500 and purchased and accurized a Ruger Mini 14. I've more or less abandoned my Howa Mini as I just have too many .223's.
Newtosavage
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Both of my Howa Mini's (6.5 G and 7.62x39) are two of the most accurate rifles I've ever owned. Sub-MOA is now expected and the occasional .7 and .6 is not surprising to me anymore. A few times, I've shot the famous "one ragged hole" groups. But what I look for is consistency. I want ZERO surprises at the range, the 4th, 7th and 12th time I take a particular gun. That's what gives me confidence in a hunting weapon.
So far, both of these mini's have done just that. I took the 6.5G to the range today, and fired 5 shots. A 3/4" 3-shot group (dead center) at 100, then a dead center shot at 200 yards, then another at 300. And at that point I put it away. LOL Now that inspires confidence.
To me - as the saying goes - only accurate rifles are interesting. So far, I've had several very interesting Savage, Tikka's and now Howas.
BTW, don't overlook that "package" Nikko Stirling Panamax scope. It has really grown on me. I had it out at last light this evening while hunting, and I was very impressed at the clarity and light gathering ability. The half mil-dot reticle is very useful too.
So far, both of these mini's have done just that. I took the 6.5G to the range today, and fired 5 shots. A 3/4" 3-shot group (dead center) at 100, then a dead center shot at 200 yards, then another at 300. And at that point I put it away. LOL Now that inspires confidence.
To me - as the saying goes - only accurate rifles are interesting. So far, I've had several very interesting Savage, Tikka's and now Howas.
BTW, don't overlook that "package" Nikko Stirling Panamax scope. It has really grown on me. I had it out at last light this evening while hunting, and I was very impressed at the clarity and light gathering ability. The half mil-dot reticle is very useful too.
If you exclude all else, like most people do, yes those people are stupid. If you think those two platforms are the end all and be all yes that makes a person stupid.
Hate to tell you this, but being popular does not equal good. It does however mean that they are usually very CHEAP.
Independent thought it is not for all people.
The interesting thing to your story for me is the statement that 762x39 is one of the most accurate.....
This falls into the it is not the round but the rifle. I would bet that most think that round is one of the most inaccurate out there based on the AK series of rifles, and what we all have been told over the years about those guns, they are mass made by commies, and just a bullet hose, you can't hit the side of a barn from inside of the barn....you could not hit water if you shot it straight down from inside a boat.
Good rifles, will shoot good, and the ones you quote are some good guns.
Without getting too political, there are people already pushing things like HR7115, if things like this happen the world is going to really change....and not for the better. I don't want all my eggs in one basket.
Newtosavage
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Many of us 7.62x39 bolt action owners have of course for years been trying to tell people how accurate the caliber is when fired from a good rifle. Some will listen, but even many of those will still have that SKS/AK "stigma" firmly rooted in the back of their minds. That's too bad, and a loss for them.
For years I wanted a 7x39 for hunting medium sized game at reasonable distances. I thought it would be a great caliber and of course convenient for me since I already load for my 7mm-08 - so I could use the same bullets. Not wanting to spend the money for a true wildcat, I finally accepted that the 6.5 Grendel was close enough. So when I saw that caliber in the Howa Mini, it was a no brainer. Only trouble is that it has essentially replaced my 7.62x39 mini in the lineup. If I didn't handload, I'd always have a reason to keep that 7.62x39 mini. Probably will still keep it as a loaner for new shooters to practice with on the cheap though, and hunt with if they don't have a hunting rifle.
I still think the 7x39 makes a lot of sense. Loaded with 120 BT's or Sierras, 130 Speers or 140 SST's, it would make a great 300-yard deer rifle.
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