Deer rifle for 12-13 YO, 6.5 Grendel?

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I have been looking at the ballistics of the 6.5 grendel and I am starting to come around to that cartridge as a youth deer taker.

I was just looking at some numbers, my 7.62x39 AR15 does 2600 fps with a 125 gr accubond. A 16" 6.5 grendel should do 2500 with a 123 gr. They have identical drop to 300 yards, both are 13.4" drop with a 150 yard zero. The Grendel has about 1/4 less wind drift. The cross over point for velocity is about 175 yards. The grendel has 80 fps more speed to 300.

All my hunting is at 150 yards or less so I'm keeping the 7.62x39, but the 6.5 grendel looks nice for that role. I don't know why but my mind has always considered the 7.62x39 as a viable 200 yard deer rifle but I always associated 6.5 grendel as underpowered. I guess sometimes you need to challenge your perspectives.
 
Picher said:
Also, don't forget to get a "PAST" recoil shield, which can be used at the range to manage recoil. I use them when shooting my .270 and other "warm" cartridges at the range.
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Those are all good options. I was just being the devils advocate for using 223.
All of it circles around the shooter being able to hit the target. The less recoil the easier it is.
I argue against 270, 308, and 30-06 because a lot of people buy cheap and cheap is usually a synthetic stocked 6lb rifle.
These generally don't fit short armed people and recoil is higher than a similar wood stocked rifle.
The smaller cartridges generally come in a shorter rifle and fit smaller children better. Larger children generally can fit the larger guns and reduced load aren't always needed.
 
Bfh_auto said:
I agree with you on the over thinking part. However 2 of my nieces started with a 223 hand rifle and were only allowed to shoot as far as they did while target shooting. Both have moved on to larger rifles and are excellent shots.
The other niece started with a 243 because my BIL wanted to make sure she had enough gun. She flinches like crazy and has lost 3 deer.
Which situation is better?
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IMO, the last niece you mentioned shouldn't have been hunting if she couldn't handle a .243. Sounds like your BIL should have kept her at the range target shooting with a smaller rifle, then target shooting with the .243 until she was ready to go after live animals. He dropped the ball and didn't train her properly and let her into the field too soon.
 
silicosys4 said:
IMO, the last niece you mentioned shouldn't have been hunting if she couldn't handle a .243. Sounds like your BIL should have kept her at the range target shooting with a smaller rifle, then target shooting with the .243 until she was ready to go after live animals. He dropped the ball and didn't train her properly and let her into the field too soon.
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I disagree. She should not be hunting with a 243. I got her to stop flinching with a 357 leveraction and a 223. Both of these are easily capable of taking deer inside 100 yes.
 
I went back the original post,

I think a Grendel in a light weight gun would work well. There are lots of good options for calibers and guns but the Grendel will kill em just as dead as a 30-06

I think your lead concerns are a little elevated, but I don’t blame you for keeping your kid lead free, it does bad stuff to developing minds

I would trade a Harris bipod for a tripod.
http://stores.hogsaddle.com/pig0311-g-field-tripod-od-green/

Pair that with a pig saddle and for $350 you can shoot very accurately from a blind or in grass, I have been hunting deer, pigs, elk, and turkeys for over 20 years and i have take two shots from the prone


In any configuration, let him practice at realistic distances from realistic positions, get him off the bench and build everyone’s confidence
 
One good tip I got from a friend about teaching kids to shoot. After you have built the fundimentals at the bench put out a reactive target like a gallon jug of water out in a field or whatever and have them practice finding a comfortable and stable position to shoot from. Let them experiment and when they find that spot have them take a shot. Whether its a hit or miss have them move and repeat the same exercise again, concentrating on first round hits only.
 
someguy2800 said:
One good tip I got from a friend about teaching kids to shoot. After you have built the fundimentals at the bench put out a reactive target like a gallon jug of water out in a field or whatever and have them practice finding a comfortable and stable position to shoot from. Let them experiment and when they find that spot have them take a shot. Whether its a hit or miss have them move and repeat the same exercise again, concentrating on first round hits only.
Click to expand...

Steel is my favorite, but clay pigeons and water bottles/milk jugs work great as well.
 
someguy2800 said:
One good tip I got from a friend about teaching kids to shoot. After you have built the fundimentals at the bench put out a reactive target like a gallon jug of water out in a field or whatever and have them practice finding a comfortable and stable position to shoot from. Let them experiment and when they find that spot have them take a shot. Whether its a hit or miss have them move and repeat the same exercise again, concentrating on first round hits only.
Click to expand...

And for the love of doG make it fun.

No matter what they shoot, the point is that they do shoot.

I think I shot my first gun...real gun about 1970, and at the time it was funny to hand a kid a full house 357 and see if it would wack them in the head.....I think my ears are still ringing from that, but ears and eyes are different now, I don't think I ever used ears till the 90's....it was just a different time.

But make it fun, reactive targets are fun, and will show the power of different things....they may know they are powerful....but now KNOW if you catch my drift.

As to the post at hand, I still like the old things, but I also think you need to talk to the person you are working with....a little like buying a gun for your wife, it never works if you just do it....that person needs input.
 
Yes, I agree it has to be fun. Paper plates are my standard target (for low cost) but they're boring. My go-to reactive target is 12oz soda cans which I get for about $0.17 ea. The kids love those and even a .22LR can get some good bursts. 2L take at least a .357 magnum to really explode. We've also got a rubber ball, but no steel. The good thing is we never have to shoot in a lane behind a firing line. Our ranges are all public land open to shooting with various terrain and vegetation. We have lots of canyons and open hills with a wide range of distances and azimuths available for shooting. Of course, we always select an area and target locations with a good backstop. We have one shooter at a time and the other one or two are behind them spotting, and there's no one else on the range. Besides plates, clays, and soda, when the boys' interest changed from bullseyes to deer, I setup full-size cardboard deer (spray painted on recycled corrugated boxes). Paper plates make for replaceable lungs and I spray a fist-size heart on there with paint. I set them up in the canyon and the shooter takes positions behind cover on a ridge overlooking the target. I always consider whether something would be fun to shoot before I throw it out. That said, I also always clean up all my range trash, 'cause I see what it looks like when people don't. I've come across places where people have taken out their TV's, fax machines, a piano, toilets, tannerite, even a few cars. I use stuff that's not going to end up in a million pieces unless they're biodegradable like a watermelon or something. I walk my dog and enjoy the sunset the same places I shoot, so I don't care for it to look like a dump. But yeah, if it's fun to shoot, we got it.

Previously, I thought a tripod would be more of an aid than I wanted to give them. I realize supporting the fore-end with stability isn't practical to expect from them - at least until they've got some muscle built through adolescence. So I thought a bipod would work and it wouldn't fall as easily as a bag or foam block, and it would still demand they handle the butt properly, besides sight picture and trigger control. But for hunting, I'd be willing to consider it if it were to give a wide margin of security getting a clean shot. The tripod might help the younger one focus on fewer things at a time too. I've got a beefy Manfrotto tripod I could use that's about the right size and it has the wide leg positions that will work sitting, kneeling, or standing (at least at kid height). I just need a rest to mount on it for the head. But it is contrary to my intention of keeping the outfit lightweight and self-carried in the field. I mean, with a tripod, weight and recoil are of less consideration, but a tripod wouldn't be my end goal.
 
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labnoti said:
Yes, I agree it has to be fun. Paper plates are my standard target (for low cost) but they're boring. My go-to reactive target is 12oz soda cans which I get for about $0.17 ea. The kids love those and even a .22LR can get some good bursts. 2L take at least a .357 magnum to really explode. We've also got a rubber ball, but no steel. The good thing is we never have to shoot in a lane behind a firing line. Our ranges are all public land open to shooting with various terrain and vegetation. We have lots of canyons and open hills with a wide range of distances and azimuths available for shooting. Of course, we always select an area and target locations with a good backstop. We have one shooter at a time and the other one or two are behind them spotting, and there's no one else on the range. Besides plates, clays, and soda, when the boys' interest changed from bullseyes to deer, I setup full-size cardboard deer (spray painted on recycled corrugated boxes). Paper plates make for replaceable lungs and I spray a fist-size heart on there with paint. I set them up in the canyon and the shooter takes positions behind cover on a ridge overlooking the target. I always consider whether something would be fun to shoot before I throw it out. That said, I also always clean up all my range trash, 'cause I see what it looks like when people don't. I've come across places where people have taken out their TV's, fax machines, a piano, toilets, tannerite, even a few cars. I use stuff that's not going to end up in a million pieces unless they're biodegradable like a watermelon or something. I walk my dog and enjoy the sunset the same places I shoot, so I don't care for it to look like a dump. But yeah, if it's fun to shoot, we got it.

Previously, I thought a tripod would be more of an aid than I wanted to give them. I realize supporting the fore-end with stability isn't practical to expect from them - at least until they've got some muscle built through adolescence. So I thought a bipod would work and it wouldn't fall as easily as a bag or foam block, and it would still demand they handle the butt properly, besides sight picture and trigger control. But for hunting, I'd be willing to consider it if it were to give a wide margin of security getting a clean shot. The tripod might help the younger one focus on fewer things at a time too. I've got a beefy Manfrotto tripod I could use that's about the right size and it has the wide leg positions that will work sitting, kneeling, or standing (at least at kid height). I just need a rest to mount on it for the head. But it is contrary to my intention of keeping the outfit lightweight and self-carried in the field. I mean, with a tripod, weight and recoil are of less consideration, but a tripod wouldn't be my end goal.
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Try ice as well....makes good targets and they really shatter.....and they leave nothing behind. cheap crackers are good also, and can be a challenge, a little string and they can hang, and twist in the wind....and again a good reaction, and what is left behind will go away quick one way or the other.

Also getting them shooting even with aids, like a tripod or even a lead sled will show them the gun is not the weak link in the chain....it will hit when steady, you just have to do your part.

Some new shooters need that so they know it is not the tool but the monkey behind the wrench.

And that can be fun as well....some people love bench rest shooting nothing wrong with doing things that was as well.
 
As they say, deer are easy to kill when you hit them it the right place and difficult to kill when you don't. Developing a nasty flinch at an early age from shooting more gun than necessary is a sure recipe for problems. I started all 3 of my boys on either a .243 or 7mm-08 (with 120g handloads). All are excellent shooters and they still use those calibers. No reason to upgrade to a bigger cannon. I put together my first Grendel on an AR platform last year and it seems to work just fine in my limited experience. It should be a great choice for your youngster.
 
I think I'm going to switch from a bipod to a tripod. But instead of using something like the P.I.G. clamp, I'll use a "V" type rest like we see on shooting sticks -- but I'll use the Manfrotto tripod I already have. I think that will provide a very solid rest that's portable, but that won't be attached to the rifle. That should not only make the rifle easier to carry for the person carrying it, but it will also keep the fundamentals of shooting technique on the shooter.
 
someguy2800 said:
I have been looking at the ballistics of the 6.5 grendel and I am starting to come around to that cartridge as a youth deer taker.

I was just looking at some numbers, my 7.62x39 AR15 does 2600 fps with a 125 gr accubond. A 16" 6.5 grendel should do 2500 with a 123 gr. They have identical drop to 300 yards, both are 13.4" drop with a 150 yard zero. The Grendel has about 1/4 less wind drift. The cross over point for velocity is about 175 yards. The grendel has 80 fps more speed to 300.

All my hunting is at 150 yards or less so I'm keeping the 7.62x39, but the 6.5 grendel looks nice for that role. I don't know why but my mind has always considered the 7.62x39 as a viable 200 yard deer rifle but I always associated 6.5 grendel as underpowered. I guess sometimes you need to challenge your perspectives.
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I couldn't stand it anymore. After daydreaming about a 7x39 companion for my 7mm-08 for a few years now, I finally acquiesced and have a 6.5 Grendel on the way...

My 7.62x39 Howa Mini has proven to be so darn accurate that I can't wait to see what the 6.5G will do on the same platform.

I have high hopes for the 6.5G mini action, especially since I just bought an 8lb jug of IMR 8208 XBR after seeing what it can do in my 7mm-08
 
IMO i'd look into the .224 Valkarie with the 90gr Federal Fusion round, or the 7.62x39 rifle. if you do the 7.62x39, a good muzzle brake will help a LOT with the recoil IMO.
 
I still don't have a particular interest in the 6.5 Grendel, but the CZ 527 chambered in that cartridge looks pretty sweet.
 
A deer rifle for a 12-13 year old...?

RUGER 77/357 w/ 2-7x scope.

WP_20180617_12_03_43_Pro.1.jpg
​
- Light weight.
- Almost no recoil.
- Fun and inexpensive to shoot.
- Will take deer out to 150 yards.
(I'm going to cut 3/4" off the stock to get the LOP to 13", but you could cut it to as short as 12-1/2".)




GR
 
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Garandimal said:
A deer rifle for a 12-13 year old...?

RUGER 77/357 w/ 2-7x scope.

- Light weight.
- Almost no recoil.
- Fun and inexpensive to shoot.
- Will take deer out to 150 yards.
(I'm going to cut 3/4" off the stock to get the LOP to 13", but you could cut it to as short as 12-1/2".)




GR
Click to expand...
I've always thought those were great looking little rifles.
 
If it's only for whitetail deer, I think a .243 is tough to beat. 25-06 is a great fairly low recoil cartridge(has some blast though), 7mm-08 is a fantastic cartridge, 6.5 creedmore...........etc. So many great choices.
 
Any of the 6.5's would make a.good choice. A 1 lb heavier 6.5.Creedmore with Hornady American Whitetail 129 Grain recoils 6.6% More Energy but with 3.3% Less Velocity than a .243 Win with Hornady American Whitetail 100 grain.
 
Honestly, I think .243 and 6.5 CM are more recoil than a 12-13 year old new shooter needs to endure. I bought my nephew a single shot .243 for his first deer rifle, and watching him shoot that thing (he only weighed about 80 lbs.) was painful. He liked my bolt action 7.62x39 a lot more, and shot it better. Same was true for my daughter. She hasn't shot her single-shot .243 since the last time she deer hunted. She weighs more than my wife now and said she just doesn't really enjoy shooting that gun.

Of course YMMV, but we have to keep in mind the weight and experience of some of these younger shooters. I can clearly remember shooting my "new to me" Winchester 94 30-30 with the steel butt plate after I got it for Christmas when I was 14. I wanted to look tough and shot a whole box of ammo the day I got it. I hid the bruise from that for weeks. And I weighed about 160 lbs. at the time. Twice as much as my nephew.

I'm really glad that younger shooters have better options these days. Calibers like the 6.5 Grendel, 6.8 SPC, 7.62x39 and even the .300 BO are ideal for first deer rifles, especially since it's a pretty short-range proposition for a new hunter anyway.
 
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My cousins son has no issue with a Model 7 Youth in .243 or my 8.25 lb (Includes Scope) in 6.5 CM. Really Ive been impressed by the performance of the .223 75 Grain Speer Gold Dots on deer. They will break a front shoulder on a quartering shot and still make it to the skin on the far side. Found perfectly mushroomed. Only caveat is they suggest a sub-20" barrel to insure adequate penetration. In the past I would have never recommended a .223 but modern bullets have changed the game.

I'm likely less worried about recoil than you.
After starting at 9 on a single shot 20 ga, 12 ga at 11 and 3" Mags at 12 my first deer rifle was a .270 Win.

My buddie's 11 year old daughter (70 lb?) Shoots a .375 H&H from the bench then wants to do it again. Her Mother's preferred rifle for the big stuff is a .404 Jeffery and she might weigh 110 lb soaking wet.
 
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