Olympus
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We’ll have to agree to disagree then.
Deer rifle for 12-13 YO, 6.5 Grendel?
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Olympus
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That was my point exactly. California didn’t invent the lead free bullet, but it’s the driving force behind the proliferation of those bullets today. Hunters have been taking game on every continent for a long time without the use of lead-free bullets.
I’ll not be participating in the trend, nor drinking the lead-free koolaid.
DannyLandrum
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+1 to a 6.5 grendel turnbolt. Just perfect for what you describe. .243 second place.
Might be overthinking this a bit.
Friend has a bad shoulder and bad back and can't handle recoil anymore. He needed a shooting house gun. We just took a Savage Tactical Rifle in .308 he already has and rebarreled it to .260 Remington. Shoots Remington Managed Recoil Loads and they work fine on 200 yard shots.Kicks about like a light .223 Rifle.
Friend has a bad shoulder and bad back and can't handle recoil anymore. He needed a shooting house gun. We just took a Savage Tactical Rifle in .308 he already has and rebarreled it to .260 Remington. Shoots Remington Managed Recoil Loads and they work fine on 200 yard shots.Kicks about like a light .223 Rifle.
Lets put in there SOME....as in SOME kids are learning.....
So here's where I stand with lead free bullets, they're really not bad within their own limitations. I've run etips, Barnes, and gmxs in a variety of cartridges from .223 up to .338 win mag, currently the etips are my favorite in .243 because they don't tear up the hides but still get range on longer shots. The caveat is that for deer or other larger critters, the impact velocity really should be up around 2200 fps, if we're staying with the Grendel, that means a 100 great ttsx, some benchmark, and 200 yd max range, or 120 tipped coppers at 50 yds. In a 7.5 lb gun, that load still runs 5.75 ft lbs of free recoil. (Gave you 7.5 because I have no idea what the scope will weigh). If you increase cartridge size, downloading is still an option but range can be increased, or swap to ssts b tip bonded etc, and stay in the Grendel class, also, I don't know where you live, but some places the cartridge requirements are more restrictive for legal hunting (in this state, 900 ftlbs at 100 yds with .22 or larger calibers) so double check that too, but the point is, I'm not anti Grendel, nor am I anti monolithic bullets, but I'm not sure I love putting the 2 together.
cdb1
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I may be the only idiot whose never heard the phrase, “shooting house gun”, before but I haven’t. What is one?
cdb1
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Okay, I just did what I shoulda did before I made the previous post. I googled shooting house and up popped pictures of deer stands for rich people. You know, the the kind of stand that moderators, movie stars, The Nuge, chicharrones and Danny Landrum use.
Unless a kid was to shoot 100 rounds a day from an enclosed firing point, the priming compound shouldn't be an issue. It seems that you're way-overthinking this.
If the kid can't stand recoil from a centerfire that will reliably kill deer, like a .243 Win in a 7.5 lb rifle, he's probably not ready for hunting. The worst thing you can do for the kid is to give him an under-powered rifle that wounds a deer and he sees it run off, bleeding as it goes. Give him/her another year or so to be more able to shoot a good-killing round in a decent rifle, like a Rem Model 7, etc.
If the kid can't stand recoil from a centerfire that will reliably kill deer, like a .243 Win in a 7.5 lb rifle, he's probably not ready for hunting. The worst thing you can do for the kid is to give him an under-powered rifle that wounds a deer and he sees it run off, bleeding as it goes. Give him/her another year or so to be more able to shoot a good-killing round in a decent rifle, like a Rem Model 7, etc.
Olon
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To add to Picher's message, take your boy scouting with you! Take him to hunt prairie dogs or get a youth 20 or 16 ga and bird hunting. I know I was always itching just to get in the field with my uncle and gpa. Some of the best life lessons I've learned are from just walking in the field with those guys. Best memories of my childhood. If he's too small to handle a deer rifle he can still develop a love of hunting and it sounds like he already has a good start.
someguy2800
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Count me in as a deer houser, though we call them deer stands. This is the last one we built. We usually use a silo ladder or something basic to get in but we decided to make this one "accessible" as we have some aging people, little kids, and wives that are scared of heights in the family, so this one works great for taking out people that are not great with climbing ladders. Its in a small finger wood with tamarack sloughs on 3 sides. The deer use it as a highway to get from one slough to the other. Nice bow stand for 2 people.
cdb1
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We call them deer stands too.
The results from extensive testing on expansion discussed over on the 6.5 Grendel forum is the 100 gr. TTSX needs 2000fps, not 2200. In fact, it can expand at 1800, but they've rounded it up to 2000 to pad the rule-of-thumb for some certainty. The 6.5 Grendel can be loaded to keep 2000fps with a .359 B.C. out to 320 yards. The energy with the Grendel beyond 300 yards is going to surpass .243 because there are options for heavier bullets and higher BC's. Short range is the only place where the .243 is superior to the Grendel. The .243 can hit with more energy up to 100 yards. After that they're about equal, but by 400 yards, the .243 has lost -- but neither is able to maintain over 1000 ft.lbs past 400 yards with LFP's. Still, I think 300 yards is a good range for a minimalist deer gun that nobody is going to "outgrow." A .243 certainly won't extend the range. Range is very thing the Grendel is good at within it's class because the case is optimized for high BC bullets. To really upgrade ballistically and increase range, it would take a .270, or at least a 7mm-08 and those rifles are heavier and have more recoil during practice and development of marksmanship even with book minimum loads.
Olympus
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I couldn’t agree more. OPs early posts show a lot of concern for lead exposure, meat shot with a lead bullet, lead-free primers, shooting lead indoors and he’s been back and forth on caliber vs caliber and gun vs gun so much I’ve basically stopped reading. It’s almost like the guy is worried about running out of things to worry about.
It’s not rocket science, pick a gun that you think with fit the shooter the best, pick basically any centerfire caliber greater than .22 in diameter and start the kid shooting. Less talk and more action. Either the kid will be comfortable with the gun or he won’t. If he is, get out to the woods and off the forum. If he’s not, wait until next year and try again.
The way this thread is going; you'd think a 12 yr old needs to be able to run around the artic with 15lb 45/70 while they chew on a lead slug. Then people start threads discussing declining numbernof yumbe hunters.
Try a .243 if you want longer range. If it hits too hard than accept a shorter range and shrink down. Stay traditional to keep it flexible and availability of ammo and choices.
If you can arrange a stand with heaters and a coffee pot, kudos to you.
Enjoyment of hunt > bag limit.
Try a .243 if you want longer range. If it hits too hard than accept a shorter range and shrink down. Stay traditional to keep it flexible and availability of ammo and choices.
If you can arrange a stand with heaters and a coffee pot, kudos to you.
Enjoyment of hunt > bag limit.
cdb1
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I still believe the kids preference should be taken in to consideration. From what I’ve read no mention has been made about what the kid wants or even if he’s been asked.
That's a totally fair concern. The bottom-line is the boys (there's more than one) are not as obsessive-compulsive as I am about the whole thing. The "worrying" I've been accused of is really just a result of my enjoyment from thinking about all these things. Some people think about politics and the upcoming midterms and whether they enjoy it or just get themselves worked up about it, I'd rather concern myself with the "ultimate minimalist deer rifle" or whatever it is that I've contemplated. The boys mostly think about other stuff. For what it's worth, I've showed them bolt-actions, lever-actions, and AR's and they've shot a few different calibers. They haven't expressed a preference. I mean, why not have one of each? One has psyched himself out about recoil, but he's a crack-shot with .22LR in rifle and pistol and with a .38 Special revolver. He doesn't miss soda cans at 100 yards with the rifle. He's not ready to hunt deer, but we've got a year to work on it. My bet is if I handed him a .30-06 and didn't tell him anything that would cause himself to psyche himself out, he'd shoot it just fine. He's got vision that tests at 20-10. The other one is younger and his vision is not so good far out. He wears corrective lenses, mostly for astigmatism. He's not quite as skilled coordinating everything yet. He'll lose the soda can in the scope's field of view at 5X. Positioning the butt, his cheek and trigger hand is awkward. He can hit a can at 50 yards, but at 100 he'll miss a few times before he hits it. We're working on basic skills like trigger-control, and breathing, but I do it without pressure, and we usually work at shorter ranges. He doesn't complain or worry about anything, but he can lose interest. He's not worried about recoil at all, and never complains no matter what.
If the boys were giving me any certain direction, I would just follow that because a lot of different ways can be made to work, but they're not. My goal is to not make it more difficult for them, especially the one for whom it's not coming so easy. That's all this is about. Maybe after four-pages, some people might get the impression this is a knock-down, drag-out rant or something, but I think of it as campfire talk when I'm stuck in front of a computer instead of a campfire.
If the boys were giving me any certain direction, I would just follow that because a lot of different ways can be made to work, but they're not. My goal is to not make it more difficult for them, especially the one for whom it's not coming so easy. That's all this is about. Maybe after four-pages, some people might get the impression this is a knock-down, drag-out rant or something, but I think of it as campfire talk when I'm stuck in front of a computer instead of a campfire.
At 1800-2000 fps, the tips open a bit, but not to anything I'd glorify with the term "expansion" (check out nosler's pictures of their etip expansion windows), I'm guessing you're running .243 numbers with a howa or winchester etc barrel and limiting yourself. If we stay with coppers, the .243 with a 1:9 barrel will run the 90 monos out to 500 yds pulling 2196fps, and 963 ft lbs of energy with it. The .224 Valk with a 70 gr accubond or 75 gr swift, will max 1800 fps out around 750 yds and if we need 1000 ft lbs of energy, 300 yds (for the record energy should not be a killing measurement). If we want to increase range over the Grendel, there's a LOT of ground between Grendel and .270= 22-250, .224V, 6 creed, .243, .260, 6.5 creed, .250ai, .25-06, and that's without the wilder cats of wildcats or ai variants. If we allow non monolithic bullets the .243 with a 9 twist we'll exceed 950 ftlbs at 600 yds, 1800 fps at 950 yds with the tgk. So if we're hand loading, any .300 savage class or .308 class cartridge can be loaded down to light recoiling youth friendly, or up to serious work, but let's not skew the numbers to something they're not.
Eta none of the above information is a suggestion for someone to try to take game at extreme distances, just straightening the record a bit.
cdb1
Member
Fair enough.
We also call them stands and then we sit in it all day.
I agree with you on the over thinking part. However 2 of my nieces started with a 223 hand rifle and were only allowed to shoot as far as they did while target shooting. Both have moved on to larger rifles and are excellent shots.
The other niece started with a 243 because my BIL wanted to make sure she had enough gun. She flinches like crazy and has lost 3 deer.
Which situation is better?
Being a handloader, I started some of the nieces/nephews on reduced loads in my .243s, so they could get used to the rifles. Then, after checking zeros with regular loads, gave them to the kids for hunting. No problems! They all got deer with no misses.
There are "Reduced Recoil" factory loads that are recommended for breaking-in folks. They work well, but zeros are a bit different at 100 yards or so. Some younger kids or small women may be better off with the reduced recoil ammo in relatively more powerful rifles. I know it's available in .270, .308, 30-06, but may not be available for anything less powerful.
There are "Reduced Recoil" factory loads that are recommended for breaking-in folks. They work well, but zeros are a bit different at 100 yards or so. Some younger kids or small women may be better off with the reduced recoil ammo in relatively more powerful rifles. I know it's available in .270, .308, 30-06, but may not be available for anything less powerful.
After checking availability of Remington reduced-power loads: "With half the recoil of standard velocity ammunition, Managed-Recoil® 270 Win, 308 Win and 30-06 actually deliver less recoil than a standard velocity 243 Win! The ammo may be fine for the range or shorter-range hunting, but standard ammo should probably be used at longer ranges than 100 yards."
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