7,62 X 39 and 30-30 in the same class?? Not exactly...

[saturno_v]

I keep hearing that the 7,62 X 39 is ballistically similar to the 30-30

I do not think so....the 7,62 soviet develops abount 1500-1600 ft/lb with a 123 gr bullet where the basic 30-30 in 150 gr, develops almost 2000 ft/lb.

We are talking about 400-500 ft/lb of difference and a heavier bullet.

The more aerodynamic Russian round retains energy better downrange but even at 500 yards (out of practical range for both rounds) the 30-30 still has a small advantage.
If we finally take in consideration the Hornady Leverevolution which uses a spitzer bullet, the old 30-30 smokes out the Soviet round for good.

Of course the deer will not notice the difference , but still, saying that the 7,62 X 39 is ballistically comparable to the 30-30 is inaccurate IMHO

 

[RNB65]

Well, the .308 and 30-06 aren't the same either. But they're close enough for comparison purposes and both will get the job done equally well on medium game.

At 100yds the diff between 7.62x39 and 30-30 is only a couple hundred ft/lbs energy which isn't much if HP/SP x39 rounds are being used. I've never said that the x39 is equal to a 30-30, but at hunting distances the diff is negligible. Both will get the job done.

I agree that the ballistic tipped 30-30 rounds are in a class by themselves and can't be compared to round nose 30-30 or x39. A friend of one of my co-workers has been hand loading spitzer soft-point 30-30 rounds for years and those puppies are some serious long range, one shot deer killers.
-

 

[R.W.Dale]

I'm gonna repost this as it applies directly to this thread

On subject of comparing 30-30 and 7.62x39



As you can see from the pic I've tested both cartridges in similar platforms. According to my chronograph performance is essentially identical. With 125grn bullets the russian round is about 175 FPS faster than 30-30, moving up to 150grn bullets velocity is identical and lastly with 170grn bullets the 30-30 is fastest by about 150fps. All with top shelf handloads.

With factory ammo this comparison goes completely lopsided in favor of the x39. My 7.62x39 handloads come just short of the velocities Russian made ammo achieves. Compare that to the pitifully underloaded factory 30-30 ammo, I don't care what the MFG claims all published velocities for 30-30 loadings are overstated by at least 250 fps for a 20" barrel. The last box of Remington 170grn sp's didn't even break 1900fps

So the short answer to your question is that 7.62x39 will do anything 30-30 will.

My 7.62x39 handload that I deer hunt with is a 125grn Nosler ballistic tip @ 2475 fps. It shoots suprisingly flat and groups well all the way out to 300m

If we finally take in consideration the Hornady Leverevolution which uses a spitzer bullet, the old 30-30 smokes out the Soviet round for good.

Only if you actually believe published velocities:banghead:. Most tests of the hornady ammo from a 20" marlin are running right at 2200fps. Compare that to wolf 154g SP's from my cz carbine at 2125fps.

6 more grs of bullet and a paltry 75 fps. OH yeah smokes it real good

the differences in 7.62x39 and 30-30 are even LESS than the differences in 30-06 v 308

 

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

krochus,

Nice looking rifles you have there. Who made them?

Dave

 

[R.W.Dale]

the top is a CZ in 7.62x39

bottom is a savage 340 in 30-30

 

[JWarren]

I've always viewed the comparison of 7.62x39 to 30-30 as an "Ah, OK..." type of thing.

You're explaining to someone who is used to what has been a more known cartridge what one that isn't that well known is. Back in the 80's there were VERY few guys around here that had any knowledge of 7.62x39, but they ALL knew what 30-30 was.

Sure, they're not the same. But it's a ball-park comparison to move discussion along somewhat.

I do the same thing with .308 with people who know 30-06, but may not be familiar with .308 other than seeing the name on the box.

Believe it or not, some of the older and/or less up to speed hunters around here still ask me what .308 is.


-- John

 

[rbernie]

My 30-30 150gr handloads come out of my 16" Marlin at around 2150fps. My 7.62x39 150gr handloads come out of my 16" AR15 at around 2100fps.

You can't go wrong with either for most thin-skinned game inside of 200-250 yards.

 

[R127]

I suspect that 7.62x39 is not getting loaded anywhere near the ultimate potential of the cartridge. Almost every load I'm aware of is just an attempt to duplicate the common Russian loads. Corbon made and may still be making a 150gr SP that puts out something on the order of 1760ftlbs of muzzle energy. With a little more research into practical loads for this caliber I would expect the slight theoretical gap between .30-30 and 7.62x39 to disapear.

Either way yeah, the deer will never know the difference. I'm planning on asking a pig or two if they can tell the difference tonight.

 

[R.W.Dale]

I suspect that 7.62x39 is not getting loaded anywhere near the ultimate potential of the cartridge.

I disagree. Whilst American 7.62x39 is underloaded the Russians are putting out some pretty spicy ammo. I chronied a box of barnual 125grn sp's that were busting 2600 fps from my CZ's carbine length barrel.

If anything is underloaded it's factory 30-30 ammunition. They test everything in those mythical 24" 30-30's where in reality 98% of 30-30 rifles have a 20 inch or shorter tube. Before you can even begin to compare the two rounds right off the top you need to subtract 100 to 200 FPS from the factory's published 30wcf velocities.

http://www.realguns.com/archives/120.htm

 

[XD-40 Shooter]

I'm getting 2250 fps from my Wolf 154 grain Soft Point's out of my SKS, the factory claim is 2100fps. I'll take my SKS over a 30-30.

 

[B.D. Turner]

Don't you know that both the 7.62x39 and the 30-30 are both way outdated? The deer of today are way tougher than they were when grandpa was hunting. You must have a belted magnum caliber to hunt white tail today. yada yada yada.........If you can't take deer with a 30-30 or a 7.62x39 you need to take some hunting lessons.

 

[The Deer Hunter]

I don't think that a couple hundred foot pounds are really going to be the deciding factor in purchasing a rifle, though. If someone wants a nice deer rifle that fire something less powerful than .308 you could choose 7.62x39 but more often than not you might probably get a .30-30 just because when most people think of a hunting rifle they think don't think of an SKS or an AK. Exceptions are something like the CZ stated above...But I haven't ever seen one of those in my neck of the woods.

 

[JohnMc]

Ruger also made a Mark II bolt-gun in 7.62x39. And a Mini Thirty makes a nice deer rifle that doesn't look so evil for the nannies of the world.
I suspect the Ruger's chambered for US made 7.62x39 (.308) rather than comblock (.311 or .312, IIRC). The CZ's probably the real deal.

 

[Bartkowski]

I wouldn't say that calling the two ballistically similar is innacurate. The .30-30 will generally be a little more powerful but it isn't really a huge difference. And the trajectories of the two are also pretty close, so I think that they are close enough to be in the same "class".

 

[rbernie]

Ruger also made a Mark II bolt-gun in 7.62x39.
....
I suspect the Ruger's chambered for US made 7.62x39 (.308) rather than comblock (.311 or .312, IIRC).

I have one, and it's Da Bomb. I put a 1.5x-6x/32 VXIII on it, and it's just a superb all-around hunting carbine.

IIRC, Ruger has the throat sized to .310 and the muzzle sized to .308. It shoots ComBloc ammo just fine, and my handloads (using .311 Hornady 125gr SPs and .312 150gr SPs) do QUITE well.

 

[Marlin 45 carbine]

since both chamberings are considered basically 'bush guns' if any advantage exists it may be the heavier slugs that the 30-30 can be loaded with. the X39 is pretty much limited to a 150 gr max due to case capacity and magazine size.
but I sure enjoy my M30 and 2 dead and eaten deer tell no tales.

 

[another okie]

"Comparable" doesn't mean identical. It means you can compare them. If you ask if the Russian round is more like a .22, a .30-.30, or a .458 Lott, you have the answer.

When you're talking to people without much ballistics knowledge it's a shorthand way of explaining how powerful the round is.

Obviously the "trienta - trienta" as they say in the southwest, gives you a chance at a 170 grain bullet, and the Russian can't match that.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

You are correct. I hear that a lot too. 7.62X39 is a respectable short range rifle round and all, but the 30-30 has it beat fairly well.

 

[rbernie]

the X39 is pretty much limited to a 150 gr max due to case capacity and magazine size.

Obviously the "trienta - trienta" as they say in the southwest, gives you a chance at a 170 grain bullet, and the Russian can't match that.

Au contraire.

I have a very nifty 7.62x39 'hogzilla' load that uses Hornady 174gr RN SPs. In my 16" AR-15s, they step out at around 1950fps. They fit into a standard AR magwell just fine, and feed (sans M4 feedramps, even) just fine.

I have multiple rifles in both chamberings. I can go from 125 grain to 170ish grain bullets in either chambering. The case capacity slightly favors the 30-30, but the slower powders needed to use that capacity don't favor the shorter barrels that I like to run for my brush carbines.

In a 16" barrel, I'm not seeing more than 50fps advantage at the muzzle for the 30-30 in any bullet weight.

And that's empirical data, guys. The rest is just preference.

 

[another okie]

Well, live and learn! I never knew the 7.62 x 39 was loaded with such heavy bullets.

 

[jpwilly]

Yes I've noticed the deer are on PCP nowadays and shooting them with anything less than a 50BMG will only tick em off!

The 30-30 and 7.62x39mm are so close it's pathetic. They ought to have a duel and we'll keep the winner. Wait...let's just let the 30-30 fade into oblivian because wolf doesn't sell if by the case!

 

[Charshooter]

I would think the 30-30 would be a better load than the military round 7.62 X 39, but I shoot 170-grain bullets. I would assume that good hand loads might be close to the 150-grain load. When I need my 30-30 in the brush, I like to knock down what I shoot, fact it I use my 35 Remington more often, since if I have room for a scope my 308 Win is defiantly superior to any other mentioned here,

 

[gimposaurus]

I do love those little CZ carbines

 

[Blackwing1]

I've tried 4 different 7.52x39's

Over the years, I've owned the following, all chambered in 7.62x39:

- Chinese SKS
- Ruger Mini-30
- CZ 527
- Romanian AK (WASR)

The SKS's were picked up for $75...and you (usually) get what you pay for. These were full of Chi-Com cosmoline, and had to be detail-stripped prior to use. They're dog-reliable with any ammo, but accuracy (even when receiver-mounted scoped...Choate's) is around 2"-3" at 100 yards.

The Ruger Mini-30 was picked up to be an alternate deer rifle, using the same ammo. I got lucky with the first one; scoped it'll do about 4" at 100 yards. I picked up a second one for my wife, and even with American-made ammo it wouldn't group better than 8". In that instance, we DIDN'T get what we paid for, which was quite a pricy rifle that just plain wouldn't shoot. And Ruger wouldn't do anything about it. With Sov-bloc .311" ammo it was more like a shotgun pattern. Traded it for...

The CZ527...finest little bolt-carbine ever made (except for that durned 5-round mag, pricy, hard-to-find, and not very good). My wife liked shooting it so much it's now HERS, and we ended up topping it with a ridiculous Leupold 3-9x50mm scope. Looks silly, but shoots 1" groups all day. Last time we confirmed zero for deer season she put 3 rounds in a cloverleaf at 100 yard, and then asked me if I wanted to shoot. Not wanting to spoil her target by scattering a few more rounds, I declined.

The AK-clones we got for the sole purpose of pissing off the anti-gunnies. I have zero use for them, but I did get a bunch of 20-round Hungarian magazines, just in case. Three times more expensive than the SKS's are now, and shoot just about the same. Removable magazine vs. 10-round fixed? I can stuff a stripper into an SKS about as fast as changing an AK, so it's a wash.

All-in-all, I'd have to say that the Minnesnowta whitetails I've taken with either the Mini-30 or CZ didn't have much comment. The one with the CZ was popped through the heart and both lungs, ran 25 yards and crashed head-on into a tree, dead. The Mini-30 one I hit badly, in the ball of the shoulder...don't know if I missed, it jumped, or if it was just the lousy accuracy of the rifle. But that deer ran off into the swamp. I waited 15 minutes, and went to track it. Long story short, the HP round had hit the shoulder joint and blew it up...little bone flecks were all that were left (which ruined the meat for a shoulder-roast, too). The bullet then followed a path down the side of the deer, just inside the ribcage, and exited out through the side just behind the ribs. I found the deer down, in the swamp, not able to move anymore, and finished it. When I tried to drag it out, that front leg basically just came off, and I had to drag it backwards with the rear legs to get it to dry ground to field-dress it.

I didn't recover the remains of the bullet from either of them, but having seen dozens of deer dropped with .30-30's, I'd have to say that the amount of terminal damage was about the same, and more extensive with the one that hit the big shoulder joint.

 

[grendelbane]

Every body seems to have their own definition regarding similar, or comparable.

I think the .7.62x39 and the .30-30 are indeed similar/comparable. Doesn't mean that they are identical, just that they are closer to each other than they are to most other cartridges. Just like a '68 Mustang and Camaro are similar.

People ask me what my .38 Super is all the time. I tell them it is like a hot 9mm. Now, there are factory +p+ 9mm rounds that will actually outperform factory .38 Supers, but top-end, but still sane, handloads in .38 Super will always outperform tope-end but still sane handloads in 9mm.

The 9x23mm Winchester will beat both of them, and as long as the contest is restricted to shorter barrels and lightweight bullets, it will also beat the .357 Magnum. Now try explaining that concept to some one who is not knowledgeable about ballistics.

Some times it is not easy to explain even to some one who is knowledgeable about ballistics.:banghead: