7.62x39--The Rodney Dangerfield of cartridges?

[Cosmoline]

I've been reading up on handloading the 7.62x39 in contemplation of possibly getting a CZ mini-mauser for use as a light hunting and knockaround carbine. I've found several sites that list handloads for the 150 grain bullet getting from 2,100 fps to 2,400 fps at the muzzle. While not exactly high-powered, that's respectable. It's in the .30/30 range and holds more energy out at 200 yards. With the right bullets the numbers at least suggest that the cartridge could take deer, black bear or hogs without much trouble. In a pinch it could even take more. I know some sourdoughs who've used SKS's to take Alaska Moose.

In the 123 and 125 grain loadings, there is great potential for the round for personal defense.

But one peek on hunting and home defense forums and I was amazed at the hostile debates that emerge. Some folks seem to think that the '39 isn't appropriate for use against anything bigger than a squirrel. What's going on here?

 

[Commissar Gribb]

maybe they meant 5.45 x 39

 

[rbernie]

I like the 7.62x39, and handload it for my SKS's. I suspect that most of the crap that it takes is due to the fact that it's most commonly found as cheap ComBlock surplus (or Russian steel-case new manufacture) and shot in relatively inaccurate rifles with relatively little effort to achieve precision marksmanship.

Having said that - when loaded to SAAMI specs for use in semi-autos, my chrono tells me that the 7.62x39 is gonna push a 125gr bullet at about 2400fps and a 150gr bullet at 2100fps. About the only real 'hot rod' loading out there is the CorBon 150gr - they advertise it at 2400fps but I've not actually tried it myself. Now, I can take those same 125gr .311 and 150gr .311 bullets and push them thru my 303R Enfields at considerably faster velocities than I can get out of the 7.62x39, and yet have in the Enfield a walk-about/truck gun that's no more heavy/long than my SKSs. Given that, my desire to hot-rod the 7.62x39 or to use it heavily in the field just isn't really there.

But that doesn't mean that the round isn't powerful enough for hunting and such - I suspect that more pigs are killed in TX with the 7.62x39 than any other single chambering. It just means that I'm likely to pick another round first, simply because I have the choice available to me to do so.

 

[KriegHund]

Indeed.

The general consencous seems to be that so long as tha calibre is large enough and has enough power behind it it is OK.

The 7.62x39 seems to meet those criteria.

 

[Cosmoline]

But that doesn't mean that the round isn't powerful enough for hunting and such - I suspect that more pigs are killed in TX with the 7.62x39 than any other single chambering.

I'm wondering if there aren't some "class" issues at play here. As with the sourdoughs I mentioned, I suspect the folks hunting hogs with SKS's in Tejas aren't leaving a Mannlicher-Schoenauer behind at the estate

 

[GunGoBoom]

Well, I think those who poo-poo it are under-rating it - it's quite useful, just like the .30-30 - a mid-range, light-recoiling, all-purpose cartridge. With those 154 gr soft points (Wolf?) or handloads, it's a good (very good) hunting round for short and short-medium ranges (out to 150), for up to largish game, like deer, or even elk in a pinch. Good point, Cosmo - them SKS's may be the only rifle they have. So let's see.... Funny, got no respect, and now dead. It's funny-*looking*, and doesn't get enough respect, but is not now dead, nor will it be.

 

[KaceCoyote]

In my own explorations, I've discovered alot've AKs seem to be incredibly ammo sensative aswell. My Saiga will put every single round in the pieplate all day long with 154gr softpoints but the lighter loads really open up.

 

[Risasi]

Kace,

Is that a 20" or 16"? Also what distance are you shooting that pie plate?

Thanks

 

[KaceCoyote]

16.5" from a Saiga at 96yrds

 

[Risasi]

Interesting. I've heard better reports of accuracy on the saiga-12 forum.

PM me if you know what ammo brand that was you were shooting.

Thanks.

[/hijack] (Sorry Cosmoline)

 

[KaceCoyote]

Wolf 154 grain, this isnt on the bench and I'm no sniper. With Iron sights and unsupported I cant do much better just yet.

 

[GunGoBoom]

UN-supported, that is quite good in my book,

 

[Commissar Gribb]

I would trust my life with either of my 7.62x39 rifles. The cartridge is not deadliest or most accurate, but it is a powerful round up close and achieves fair accuracy is nearly all conditions. It's cheap and fun to shoot and I dont question it's stopping power.

 

[cracked butt]

I would rather use a 30-30 myself for hunting big game, but I know a few people who don't seem to have any problems taking whitetails down with their sks's. Its a fun round to shoot, especially through an autoloader, but since it isn't normally chambered in an 'American' rifle and doesn't have any thing fancy in its name like superdupershortmagnum, you can't expect that it will get a whole lot of respect from the general public.

 

[Cosmoline]

That's a good point. Maybe I could handload some and market it as the .30/30 Short Ultra Magnum

 

[KaceCoyote]

thanks GGB, thats VERY slow fire but I'm working on it.

 

[FRIENDLY]

7.62x39

The cartridge is just like the .30 carbine load.It does what it is designed to do no more no less.Easy to shoot reasonably accurate and mass produced.There are much better rounds for other purposes but they also have drawbacks.Just consider the 7.62x39 a light loaded 30/30 with pointed bullets and that is close enough for normal hunting out to 150-200 yards

 

[444]

These threads on the various cartridges can become quite heated. Many people have their faviorites and as I have said before, often it is their faviorite simply because they happen to own one. That being said, my take on the 7.62 x 39 is that it isn't bad. It isn't good either. It is just one of those blah, also ran cartridges. There isn't any purpose that I can think of for that cartridge that wouldn't be better handled by something else. The one thing that I think they do very well is that there are a number of decent rifles for chambered in this cartridge and lots of very cheap ammo. As far as buying a new bolt action rifle and handloading: I can't think of a good reason to go that route. But, if that pulls your chain, you don't need to justify it to anyone else.
I own a nice Russian SKS. I buy the cheap imported ammo (that seems to work pretty darn well). And if I desire higher performace, I reach for another rifle chambered for another cartridge.

 

[Cosmoline]

But think about it for a second. Folks are putting down lots of Franklins for rifles and cartridges that shave a fraction of an inch off their OAL and have slightly shorter actions. And here we have a cartridge a full 12mm off a .308 and even more off a .30/30, yet does the work of a .30/30 with better bullets! Pick up that CZ mini-Mauser and see how fast if cycles. Not even a "short" action .308 is that light or fast. I don't think this is an also-ran.

 

[yodar]

7.62 X 39 no respect

Cosmoline feels the same way as I do. I reload 7.62 x 39 with the 155 2R Lee cast boolet and get ~ 2000 fps with it and I rebarrelled a VZ 24 (aw!, OK ! A gunsmith rebarrelled it for me) to shoot 7.62 x 39 and and it is a rifle I can load 200 rounds for and shoot all day.

Since I dont hunt anymore (trauma induced deafness) I shoot at the range with friends and the loads hit the gong with iron sites at 250 yards


Yodar

 

[KaceCoyote]

A wise man, asks no more of his caliber nor his weapon than for it to do its job. Anything, which accomplishes the task it was created for cant be dumped on.

The AK was built with urban warfare in mind, so was its respective calibers. It accomplishes this task admirably. Thus its a good caliber to me.

 

[rbernie]

Pick up that CZ mini-Mauser and see how fast if cycles. Not even a "short" action .308 is that light or fast.

BTDT, and an No5 Enfield will leave it for cold - all the while shooting the same bullets a lot faster or no faster depending on how much power you want. Less flexibility, same weight - sounds like a compromise to me.

I know that I'm picking, but I think that you're overstating the case for the 7.62x39. It's capable of being a good anti-personnel round and a good short-to-mid-range medium game round, but it's also a round that will always be what it is; a compromise.

If its what you can get and afford, by all means - enjoy. If you want the challenge of getting MOA out of a 7.62x39 rifle, have fun. BTDT, and it's all good, clean fun. But it's NOT as efficient for social work as other choices, and its not as efficient for hunting as other choices.

 

[Cosmoline]

The Jungle Carbine weighs over 7 lbs and the .303's power is knocked down a notch by the short barrel. The legendary SMLE action aside, I'm willing to bet I can put five rounds downrange faster with the CZ 527. Besides, the jungle carbines are poorly balanced and have a wandering zero.

All cartridge/rifle combinations are a compromise. It's a truism. I would NOT consider the 7.62x39 proper for hunting brown bear (though it's at least as good as a Casull handgun for bear protection) But I do consider it in the same class as the wide range of "woods" cartridges from the .30/30 to the light loaded .45/70. And within that class it has some serious advantages over the competition--primarily its short OAL and its cheap cost. The only thing "intermediate" about it, when loaded for a mauser action in particular, is its length.

Part of the current I'm swimming against, I suspect, is the fact that I'm pushing for adoption of the USSR's most famous ammo over the .30/30 of mom and apple pie fame

 

[beerslurpy]

The mom-and-apple pie Winchester 94 (which I owned as a child) was the AK47 of its day. High magazine capacity for its day, high rate of fire, a balance of recoil, power and accuracy in a relatively compact package. It was a great gun for hunting, fighting humans, etc.

The only downsides to the model 94 were:
-very slow reload time compared to later innovations involving stripper clips and later still detachable magazines
-flat-tip bullets were bad for ballistics
-not as quick firing as semi or full auto
-ergonomically dubious
-straight-up ejection made fitting optics nearly impossible
-rimmed cartridge and blackpowder design made it unsuitable for semi-auto with modern smokeless.

The AK47 fixes all the shortcomings of the model 94 by basically just adding all the advancements that were made in the 60 years that separate them.

 

[rbernie]

The Jungle Carbine weighs over 7 lbs and the .303's power is knocked down a notch by the short barrel.

My cut-down 21" No4Mk1 weighs in at a tad under 7lbs, and loses less than 50fps in almost any load to the standard 25" SMLE barrel. Remember, the 303R (being underbore, so to speak) uses awfully fast powders that really don't need a long barrel.

The legendary SMLE action aside, I'm willing to bet I can put five rounds downrange faster with the CZ 527.

Bet.

Besides, the jungle carbines are poorly balanced and have a wandering zero.

Poo and fie - more Internet rumor than reality (at least the wandering zero issue). My No4s balance on the magazine quite nicely, and are more compact for a given length than any Mauser-derivitive action due to the lack of a forward lug recess in the receiver.

And within that class it has some serious advantages over the competition--primarily its short OAL and its cheap cost.

Cost is certainly an advantage. But I don't see the short length of the cartridge itself as an advantage, but rather just as an enabler of potentially more compact/faster-cycling actions. If that advantage proves minimal, of what residual value is the short length?

Part of the current I'm swimming against, I suspect, is the fact that I'm pushing for adoption of the USSR's most famous ammo over the .30/30 of mom and apple pie fame

Not with me. I like the 7.62x39 better than the 30-30 in most any way conceivable. I've long since sold my Marlins but kept my SKSs. I just wouldn't get a bolt-action in 7.62x39 if I could also get the same functionality in a more versatile (larger case capacity) chambering.